# Misunderstood plurals, or possibly just weird linguistic stuffs **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 5, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778 "2022-10-05T20:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bayaker/32/3454_2.png) [@Bayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/21 "2022-10-06T13:33:49Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > _Tamale_ is a misconstrued singular form of _tamales_. (The actual singular in Spanish is _tamal_.) And Spanish _tamal_ comes from the Nahuatl word _tamalli_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/22 "2022-10-06T13:36:11Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Unfortunately the podcasters failed to realize “ochs” here is just German for ox, and kept talking about “the auroch”. I blame whatever joker decided to just use the German spelling instead of Anglicizing it into “ur-ox”. > **[Aurochs | Etymology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs#Etymology)** > > Both "aur" and "ur" are Germanic or Celtic words meaning "wild ox". > In Old High German this word was compounded with ohso ('ox') to ūrohso, which became the early modern Aurochs. The Latin word "urus" was used for wild ox from the Gallic Wars onwards. > The use of the plural form aurochsen in English is a direct parallel of the German plural Ochsen and recreates the same distinction by analogy as English singular ox and plural oxen. "Aurochs" is both the singular and the plural term used to refer ... ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/23 "2022-10-06T13:41:51Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I’ve heard the “pea” thing before, but my mind cannot hold on to it. It just doesn’t make sense. 😃 It’s just that nobody thought about single peas when the stuff was named - in the same way that nobody really thinks of a simple name for a single grain of rice - ‘pease’ was something you have a sack of, like you have a sack of rice. Calling a single grain of pease ‘a pea’ is like calling a single grain of rice ‘a rie’ or something, except that with peas, people did it anyway and it stuck - so it’s not wrong now. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/24 "2022-10-06T13:44:39Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s just that nobody thought about single peas when the stuff was named - in the same way that nobody really thinks of a simple name for a single grain of rice - ‘pease’ was something you have a sack of, like you have a sack of rice. Calling a single grain of pease ‘a pea’ is like calling a single grain of rice ‘a rie’ or something, except that with peas, people did it anyway, and it stuck, so it’s not wrong now. Probably because rice comes in grains, whereas pease comes in peas. (It was very hard to not make this post muddled by making the “comes in peace” joke.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/25 "2022-10-06T13:46:08Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Probably because rice comes in grains, whereas pease comes in peas. Both were treated as bulk grain products originally (peas were harvested ripe and dried, not typically served green and fresh like we commonly do today) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/26 "2022-10-06T14:03:22Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Both were treated as bulk grain products originally (peas were harvested ripe and dried, not typically served green and fresh like we commonly do today) I got that, but many grains have grains of about the same size. And grain, at least today, is used for particles of that size or smaller. Peas on the other hand are conveniently sized to be the next step up. Norwegian apparently had a similar journey as the etymology for pea, “_ert_” cites a plural Norse “ertr”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/27 "2022-10-06T14:23:08Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I got that, but many grains have grains of about the same size. And grain, at least today, is used for particles of that size or smaller. The dividing line is arbitrary. At one point, pease and cherries were treated like rice, wheat, sugar, etc. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/28 "2022-10-06T14:58:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The dividing line is arbitrary. At one point, pease and cherries were treated like rice, wheat, sugar, etc. Yes, it’s arbitrary, but it isn’t random. Peas are larger. Today “pea sized” is a fairly commonly used descriptor, and I was merely suggesting this could have contributed to the development of a singular. Especially since this development of a singular, and the use of it as a reference, exists in different languages with words for pea that are not recently related. I thought I could present this lose hypothesis in a joking manner without being misunderstood as thinking it inherently impossible to treat differently sized bulk “grains” the same way. How long ago did the Cherry thing happen? Did people go from talking about bags of cherise to bags of cherries? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/29 "2022-10-06T15:08:03Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Yes, it’s arbitrary, but it isn’t random. Language is kind of random, though. It’s not scientific or objective. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/30 "2022-10-06T15:27:56Z")
> [@naita](#): > > How long ago did the Cherry thing happen? Did people go from talking about bags of cherise to bags of cherries? Singular chery/cheri(e)/chiri(e) is first known from the 14th century. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/31 "2022-10-06T15:30:14Z")
“LEGO” is both singular and plural. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/32 "2022-10-06T15:35:32Z")
Not in the U.S., it isn’t. I’ve said “legos” all my life. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/33 "2022-10-06T15:36:30Z")
Yes. It would not be safe to tell an American child to “pick up your lego.” ---
**Author:** ![Author\_Balk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Author\_Balk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Author_Balk)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/34 "2022-10-06T16:00:40Z")
I’ve wondered if fisticuffs is plural. If so, what is a fisticuff? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/35 "2022-10-06T16:47:55Z")
> [cuff (v.2)](https://www.etymonline.com/word/cuff?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_439) > > “to strike with or as with the open hand,” 1520s, of unknown origin, perhaps from Swedish kuffa “to thrust, push.” Related: Cuffed; cuffing. As a noun, “a blow with the open hand,” from 1560s. > > Entries linking to _cuff_ > > [fisticuffs (n.)](https://www.etymonline.com/word/fisticuffs#etymonline_v_33134) > > c. 1600, fisty cuffes, from [fist](https://www.etymonline.com/word/fist?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_5978) (n.) + cuff (n.) “a blow” (see [cuff](https://www.etymonline.com/word/cuff?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_439) (v.2)), with the form perhaps in imitation of handiwork. Related: Fisticuff. In practice the word fisticuffs was used for two people exchanging blows, an informal, impromptu boxing match. Like a boxing match or a baseball game, it was a singular about two sides meeting. They engaged in fisticuffs is like they played baseball. You can’t have just one team. But each person is a baseball player, so each person can throw a punch. And an individual punch can be a fisticuff. > [ > > ### Senate documents - Volume 6; Volume 360 - Page 901 > > [books.google.com](http://books.google.com) › books > ]([Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=KO_GVJo4bOcC&pg=PA901-IA16&dq=fisticuff&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH2qzshsz6AhUVlYkEHVX6CAUQ6AF6BAhjEAI)) > > 1884 > > Found inside – Page 901 > > Q. You did not see the beginning of the fight 1 - A . Not the _fisticuff_ ; no , sir ; I was in my place of business when it commenced ; I heard the Ι fight and went out there . Q. Mr. Noel was an acquaintance of yours , and you went out … ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/36 "2022-10-06T16:56:51Z")
The singular for Skittles isn’t a “Skittle”, but a “Skittles lentil”. Well at least according to the people who make them. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/37 "2022-10-06T19:33:46Z")
> [@naita](#): > > got that, but many grains have grains of about the same size. And grain, at least today, is used for particles of that size or smaller. Corn kernels are grain, and they’re about the same size as a dried pea. Soybeans, field beans and other legumes are today still treated like bulk grains in the context of animal fodder. Millet, buckwheat, sorghum and other grains are smaller than rice, wheat and barley. Grains (outside of the definition of true cereals) only need to be _granular_ in nature. I think what’s happening here is peas seem exceptional to you, because we’re focusing on peas. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/38 "2022-10-06T20:04:13Z")
I think we are partially talking past each other due to the many meaning of the word grain. Since I actually have no trouble understanding the concept of words for bulk seeds I’m going to give up explaining what I actually mean. I am curious though what people said if they unloaded dried pease and got one in their shoe. “I’ve got a grain of pease in my shoe!”? A peaseseed? A peabean, a peakernel? According to m-w the word for cherry prior to the loan of Cherise was [cerisæppel](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/cherry-history-origin), so maybe there’s a word for singular pea that would seem similarly quaint today. And since this is a thread about weird linguistics stuff and you mentioned corn. In Norwegian, where corn is maize, _korn_ is both grain in the cereal sense and in the sense of a grain of something, e.g. _sandkorn_, _saltkorn_. In Sweden it is the latter, but in the grain sense it has ended up specifically meaning “barley”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/39 "2022-10-06T20:32:25Z")
The English words “corn”, “kernel”, “grain” are cognates with each other. All are ultimately derive from Indo-European “ǵr̥h₂nóm”. The “corn” and “kernel” are thoroughly Germanic, while “grain” comes via Latin. The first root “ǵerh₂” meant something like grow old and led to English words “churl”, “geriatrics”, “garnet”, “granite”, “grenade”. (By the way, “grenade” is a shortening of “pomegranate”, literally a grained apple.) The root seems very similar to the root “gʰreh₁”, which meant something like grow green and led to English words “grow”, “green”, “gray”, “grass”, “graze”. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778/40 "2022-10-06T21:46:49Z")
> [@naita](#): > > “cannons” appears to have been in parallel use as a plural for the last two hundred years at least. Miriam Webster might say that but I think that the OED would disagree: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misunderstood-plurals-or-possibly-just-weird-linguistic-stuffs/972778.md?page=3)