# MIT Blackjack Team: Why don't people replicate that? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** board-card-word-game\ **Created:** [March 19, 2022, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331 "2022-03-19T12:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/41 "2022-03-22T22:54:34Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > The same casino could rig one-armed bandits and other games as well…there’s an element of trust here. No one trusts the casinos on this. Slot machine payout minimums are mandated by law (e.g. $0.90 for every $1 spent) and the state randomly checks machines to keep casinos honest. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/42 "2022-03-22T23:42:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No one trusts the casinos on this. Slot machine payout minimums are mandated by law (e.g. $0.90 for every $1 spent) and the state randomly checks machines to keep casinos honest. Assuming they never get caught…or that they haven’t paid someone off. When a lot of money is involved, some will be tempted. Returning to how they treat customers: [Casino claims it was a $3M glitch, won’t pay out.](https://www.newsweek.com/woman-claims-mgm-online-casino-refused-payout-3m-win-glitch-1603273) [$8.5M win called a malfunction, no payoff](https://www.casino.org/news/newcastle-casino-is-refusing-to-pay-big-ackpot-citing-machine-error/) Etc. You can also talk about the skim of the old days, winners being roughed up in the back room as I cited above…I’m not convinced casinos always follow the law. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/43 "2022-03-23T12:59:15Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > It seems bogus to me for the casino to set up a game that’s defeatable, then decide not to let the people who know how to beat it play the game. The same casino could rig one-armed bandits and other games as well…there’s an element of trust here. Huh? The casino sets the exact amount that slot machines will pay out, and sets the rules for every single one of the games. Those rules are crafted specifically to ensure that each and every game will be profitable for the casino, because casinos are businesses. One of the rules for Blackjack is… no card counting. It’s a rule of the game, the same as not being allowed to look at the dealer’s hole card. If you reach over and take a peek at the dealer’s card before deciding whether to take another card for your hand, they will throw you out of the casino. Being able to take a peek without the casino finding out doesn’t make you a skilled player, it makes you a skilled cheat. If you change the rules of the game to allow card counting, and make no other changes to the rules, the game would be a losing proposition for the casino, and they would not continue to offer it under that set of rules. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/44 "2022-03-23T13:02:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve been in plenty of casinos with both live tables and electronic tables, and it’s very common to see the live tables stuffed with players while the electronic games go largely unused. People who like cards don’t seem to like the electronic tables much. Personally, I prefer the electronic tables. It’s less intimidating and the pace of the game is slower which means you get more time to consider your options and more time to nurse your “free” drink before you lose all your money. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/45 "2022-03-23T14:12:02Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > One of the rules for Blackjack is… no card counting. It’s a rule of the game, the same as not being allowed to look at the dealer’s hole card. There is a difference. Not looking at the dealer’s hole card is a rule of the game. That’s an actual “According to Hoyle” part of the game. Card counting is more of a casino policy. It’s not against the rules of the game itself but something the casino itself prefer you don’t do ETA: well…prefer you don’t do well and at large scale, anyway. They love the weekend punters who have dreams of breaking the bank at $25 tables. One is outright cheating (subject to criminal law in many jurisdictions) while the other is something they don’t want you to do because of the disadvantage and won’t get you landed in the pokey. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/46 "2022-03-23T14:14:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > One of the rules for Blackjack is… no card counting. That’s not really true. Card counting isn’t against the rules, but the casino doesn’t have to let you play or can reshuffle whenever they want to eliminate the player’s advantage. What is against the rules is communicating with other players, or using any sort of electronic counting or signaling device. Counting may cause the casino to not let you play. Communicating with others will get you in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/47 "2022-03-23T15:24:58Z")
As far as slots go, the baked-in house edge is large enough that there is absolutely zero upside to the casino cheating and an enormous downside. They pull your license for things like that, along with felony charges and fines that could fund small countries. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/48 "2022-03-23T15:49:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > What is against the rules is communicating with other players, or using any sort of electronic counting or signaling device. Counting may cause the casino to not let you play. Communicating with others will get you in trouble. Why is communicating with other players against the rules? Blackjack is 100% individual players against the dealer, and all the players’ cards are visible, what secret information could players provide each other? I’ve only played blackjack in a casino a few times, but I was always talking with my friends about whether to hit or stand. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/49 "2022-03-23T16:01:07Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Why is communicating with other players against the rules? It’s typically used by someone playing at a table until the count is favorable. Instead of betting big at that point (thus giving away that you have been counting cards) the player signals to someone not yet playing who comes to that table and bets big. Since the new player didn’t change their betting pattern it’s harder to detect. But casinos are on the lookout for any signaling new players to avoid detection. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/50 "2022-03-23T16:32:04Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Not looking at the dealer’s hole card is a rule of the game. That’s an actual “According to Hoyle” part of the game. > > Card counting is more of a casino policy. It’s not against the rules of the game itself but something the casino itself prefer you don’t do When Hoyle’s opens their own casino, they get to make their own rules. Labeling a rule “casino policy” doesn’t change anything, the rules of the game are what the Casino hosting the game has indicated is allowed vs. isn’t allowed when you play the game on their property. Everybody who counts cards knows damn well that the Casino they’re playing in doesn’t allow card counting. 100% of card counters know this, and try to justify breaking Casino rules by acting like their ability to conceal their activity is a skill they should be rewarded for. Counting cards is as easy as 1-2-3… in fact it IS 1-2-3, counting is a skill learned from a puppet vampire on Sesame Street. There is NO SKILL to card counting, card counters haven’t figured out how to beat the game, they’re not clever, or imaginative. They are hiding what they’re doing from a Casino that doesn’t allow Blackjack players to do what they’re doing. The only reason card counting makes money is that the rules of the game are designed around prohibited card counting. If card counting was allowed, how long do you think Casinos would take to adjust the rules to eliminate the card counting advantage? I think it would depend on how quick the Pit Boss is with a Sharpie. They have a half dozen levers they can pull to put the advantage back into their favor, even if you count out loud to the entire table. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/51 "2022-03-23T16:43:53Z")
Casinos don’t have to do anything special to frustrate card counters. 8-deck shoes, shuffle when there is still a third of the shoe left, no entry mid-shoe. Those are standard just about everywhere for your basic floor game and they kill any advantage counters may get without changing “The Rules” of the game for everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/52 "2022-03-23T16:45:10Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > There is a difference. No, there isn’t. The rules of a game are determined by whoever owns the table. If the Bellagio says card counting is against the rules of blackjack, then card counting is against the rules of blackjack in their casino. If they say anyone can see the dealer’s hole card if they want, then looking at the dealer’s hole card isn’t cheating. If they start shuffling Pokemon cards into the deck, then Pokemon cards are part of blackjack, when you play in their casino. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/53 "2022-03-23T16:52:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > When Hoyle’s opens their own casino, they get to make their own rules. Labeling a rule “casino policy” doesn’t change anything, the rules of the game are what the Casino hosting the game has indicated is allowed vs. isn’t allowed when you play the game on their property. Except for one BIG difference - you can be charged with a crime for cheating. Not so for counting cards. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Everybody who counts cards knows damn well that the Casino they’re playing in doesn’t allow card counting. 100% of card counters know this, and try to justify breaking Casino rules by acting like their ability to conceal their activity is a skill they should be rewarded for. > > Counting cards is as easy as 1-2-3… in fact it IS 1-2-3, counting is a skill learned from a puppet vampire on Sesame Street. There is NO SKILL to card counting, card counters haven’t figured out how to beat the game, they’re not clever, or imaginative. This isn’t true either. Casinos themselves will offer basic strategy cards and books on counting Casinos almost encourage punters to attempt to count cards. Successful card counting (not just maintaining a count but knowing how to adjust strategy based on the count) is _hard_ and it’s comparatively easy to make money from people who think they can do it with any level of proficiency. This point has been made repeatedly in this thread. > [@Miller](#): > > No, there isn’t. The rules of a game are determined by whoever owns the table. If the Bellagio says card counting is against the rules of blackjack, then card counting is against the rules of blackjack in their casino. Except they don’t - I challenge you to back this assertion up with any policy by the Bellagio (or any casino) that says this. As above (in several posts, most of them not my own), casinos mostly don’t care unless you are actually good at it AND have a sufficiently big bankroll for it to hit their bottom line. Then, they will let you know you are no longer welcome to play blackjack. NOT that you are violating any blackjack rules but that they no longer want to play with you. Again, very different thing. They aren’t accusing anybody of breaking rules (but they also have little interest in discouraging people from thinking card counting is against the rules) but of being too good at the game to play with. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/54 "2022-03-23T17:23:49Z")
But that’s no more “against the rules” than counting is. You can yell over “Hey Bob, this table’s getting hot!” and the worst they can do is ask you to leave and not return. It’s not like actual cheating, or poker players who are ostensibly competing against each other actually being compatriots and communicating. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/55 "2022-03-23T20:05:06Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > You can yell over “Hey Bob, this table’s getting hot!” and the worst they can do is ask you to leave and not return. AFAIK, if you use electronic means to communicate that same message (thus hiding it from the casino) you are doing something illegal. But I may be misremembering what I’ve heard. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/56 "2022-03-23T20:53:28Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Except for one BIG difference - you can be charged with a crime for cheating. I didn’t say you were cheating, I said you were breaking the rules of the game. I will say this, if casinos offer gamblers books on card counting and then bar them from using those techniques, that’s not acceptable. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > being too good at the game Honestly, this is absolute nonsense. There is nothing at all clever about counting up and down when certain cards appear, and jacking up your bet when the deck is favorable. The only skill is in not getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/57 "2022-03-23T21:04:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No one trusts the casinos on this. Slot machine payout minimums are mandated by law (e.g. $0.90 for every $1 spent) and the state randomly checks machines to keep casinos honest. A rather new YouTube channel (only about a month old) explains everything you could possibly want to know about slot machines: how they work, how they are programmed, how they are configured, how progressives work, and a lot more, including legalities and state gaming commissions. The host is a slot technician, who can rebuild and repair slot machines; and while he answers pretty much all questions put to him, there are some he won’t answer, because he does have a professional obligation to keep some things secret: > **[Cowboy Slots](https://www.youtube.com/c/CowboySlots/featured)** > > Welcome to Cowboy Slots! The leader in slot and casino education on YouTube! All of our information is 100% FREE with no classes or courses to buy. Lead by former casino employees, techs, experts, and backed by those currently and retired from the... ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/58 "2022-03-23T22:14:16Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Huh? The casino sets the exact amount that slot machines will pay out, and sets the rules for every single one of the games. Those rules are crafted specifically to ensure that each and every game will be profitable for the casino, because casinos are businesses. In theory, sure. However, how about this guy? > In the early 1990s, Ron Harris was a software engineer writing anti-cheating software for the Nevada Gaming Control Board. > > But secretly, he was coding machines with a hidden software switch that paid out huge jackpots when players inserted coins in a certain sequence. > > [According to CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/07/13/popsci.gambling/), Harris rigged 30 machines before getting accomplices to play the slots and walk away with hundreds of thousands of dollars. and > John Kane managed to win more than $500,000 playing video poker by exploiting a software bug found in machines across the country. > > [According to Wired](https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/), Kane inadvertently discovered a glitch in the Game King line of video poker machines that allowed players to replay hands with different base wagers. That meant Kane could sit at a machine for hours betting one cent at a time, and when he eventually scored a jackpot-winning hand, he could replay the hand with a maximum wager of $10, earning him a payout of $10,000 or more. > Kane and his friend Andre Nestor, who took part in the scheme, were eventually arrested, but they both walked free after federal prosecutors failed to justify charges of hacking and conspiracy. > > “All these guys did is simply push a sequence of buttons that they were legally entitled to push,” Kane’s attorney said. > **[9 scandals that rocked the gambling industry](https://www.businessinsider.com/scandals-casinos-gambling-las-vegas-2019-6)** > > While some gambling cheaters managed to evade casino security for years, most found their way to a jail cell. Machines can be programmed fairly or not, competently or not, and so on. I don’t have perfect faith in them or the people associated with them. Sure, if they get caught it wouldn’t be worth it. Due to human nature some will underestimate the cost while others assume they’ll never get caught. You have to check everybody from design to programming, building, servicing, auditing, and so on. Here’s one who appears to be a pretty high ranking official. It isn’t slot related per se but makes you wonder if the Nevada Gaming Commission itself is even perfect. > Michonne Ascuaga has resigned from her post on the Nevada Gaming Commission, following the revelation of alleged financial improprieties at the Sparks Nugget, the casino in northern Nevada that she managed for 16 years. > > The Nugget is being investigated by the U.S. Department of Treasury’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) over allegations that it failed to comply with financial regulations during Ascuaga’s tenure, and neglected to establish an effective anti-money laundering program. > **[Nevada Gaming Regulator Michonne Ascuaga Resigns Over Alleged Sparks Nugget...](https://www.casino.org/news/nevada-gaming-regulator-michonne-ascuaga-resigns-over-alleged-sparks-nugget-improprieties/)** > > Michonne Ascuaga resigns from Nevada Gaming Commission over alleged misconduct while managing northern Nevada casino. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/59 "2022-03-23T22:35:25Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > and while he answers pretty much all questions put to him, there are some he won’t answer, because he does have a professional obligation to keep some things secret: If the things he has a professional obligation to keep secret are anything other than keys, then I trust neither him nor his employers. Heck, probably even if they are keys. If he has knowledge that could, in the wrong hands, be used to cheat, then how do we know that his own hands aren’t the wrong hands? A competent system should be designed such that there is no such knowledge, and so everyone can know that there’s no such knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331/60 "2022-03-23T23:53:15Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > AFAIK, if you use electronic means to communicate that same message (thus hiding it from the casino) you are doing something illegal. But I may be misremembering what I’ve heard. In Nevada, the only laws concerning communicating with a cellphone was that you couldn’t use one in a sportsbook, and even that was repealed in 2008. You still can’t use a cellphone to, say, keep track of cards in blackjack, or use a video poker app to tell you how to play a hand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mit-blackjack-team-why-dont-people-replicate-that/961331.md?page=4)