# MLB-2 outs in the 9th **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 3, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741 "2013-04-03T16:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/21 "2013-04-03T18:56:23Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > And it wasn’t just Schilling who was pissed when it happened to him. [His teammates were](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/bstrike/2001-05-29-davis.htm). Hell, his manager is [STILL pissed off](http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/27/10-years-later-bob-brenly-still-bitter-about-ben-davis-bunt/). That manager is a major-league asshole. You’re down by a run or two, your job is to get on base. Period. If it ruins a perfect game, so what? If they give you the bunt, take it. One thing I’ve always suspected- recall when Roger Clemens went to the Astros for a few seasons. He wound up pitching in the All Star Game with Piazza as his catcher. The AL batters lit him up like a Christmas tree. I’ve always thought Piazza told the batters what was coming. Has anyone ever heard anything on this? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/22 "2013-04-03T19:35:15Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I don’t disagree with this. But you’re still getting one in your ear the next day if you do it. You might, but lots of players would think it was uncalled for. In a tight game any baserunner is fair game. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/23 "2013-04-03T19:39:40Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The obvious non-baseball example is the “sack” record when Favre laid down for Michael Strahan. That’s [the example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_strahan#Strahan.27s_2001_record-breaking_sack) I was thinking of, as well; I know that more than a few people felt that Strahan’s record, and Favre’s integrity, were a little tainted due to that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/24 "2013-04-03T20:15:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One thing I’ve always suspected- recall when Roger Clemens went to the Astros for a few seasons. He wound up pitching in the All Star Game with Piazza as his catcher. The AL batters lit him up like a Christmas tree. I’ve always thought Piazza told the batters what was coming. Has anyone ever heard anything on this? You’ll certainly never hear Piazza admit it, but I have no doubt he told each batter “And when you speak of me, speak well”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/25 "2013-04-03T20:39:04Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > In a one or two run game when your team is having no luck against a pitcher, a bunt is fair game. If it’s 7-0 then no, it would be bad form, but I don’t think too many players or teams would be upset if it’s a close game. A baserunner in a close game is more important than the other team’s pitcher’s perfect game. I think a hitter should play it exactly the way he’d play it if it was, say, a five-hit shutout. Try to get on base, sure, but if you wouldn’t try to bunt normally to get on base, you don’t do it as the potential final out in a perfect game. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/26 "2013-04-03T20:50:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > That manager is a major-league asshole. You’re down by a run or two, your job is to get on base. Period. If it ruins a perfect game, so what? If they give you the bunt, take it. > One thing I’ve always suspected- recall when Roger Clemens went to the Astros for a few seasons. He wound up pitching in the All Star Game with Piazza as his catcher. The AL batters lit him up like a Christmas tree. I’ve always thought Piazza told the batters what was coming. Has anyone ever heard anything on this? I always thought Park grooved that pitch to Ripken, but I’m not sure about this one. Clemens really got hammered. Could Piazza have done that without the umpire over-hearing and objecting? And wouldn’t Clemens have realized and ignored Piazza’s signs? ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/27 "2013-04-03T21:09:17Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I always thought Park grooved that pitch to Ripken, but I’m not sure about this one. Clemens really got hammered. Could Piazza have done that without the umpire over-hearing and objecting? And wouldn’t Clemens have realized and ignored Piazza’s signs? What’s the umpire going to object to? The catcher running his mouth at the batters? Catchers do that all the time. Now, if Clemens thought Piazza was tipping pitches, he might have gone all 'roid ragey on Piazza (again) and we would’ve had a fist fight in the dugout, so it seems unlikely to me, but you never know. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/28 "2013-04-03T21:29:16Z")
In reverse…Pete Rose’s hitting streak ended at 44 (?) when he was retired by Atlanta’s Gene Garber on what Rose thought of as slop. He complained bitterly that Garber would throw him a change-up in a 16-4 game with 2 out in the ninth inning. Apparently only fastballs will do when a record is on the line. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/29 "2013-04-03T21:37:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think a hitter should play it exactly the way he’d play it if it was, say, a five-hit shutout. Try to get on base, sure, but if you wouldn’t try to bunt normally to get on base, you don’t do it as the potential final out in a perfect game. I don’t get this. If they’re doing it as the “potential final out”, then who cares, they’re making an out and the perfect game stands. If they’re doing to get on base, that’s perfectly legitimate. Getting on base is always something you try to do. Doesn’t matter if you’re one run down or twenty. The “if you wouldn’t try to bunt normally to get on base” idea is moot. If it’s successful, it’s helping your team win. If it was a bid idea and fails, the perfect game stands. Anything a batter tries to do to just to break up a perfect game is something that helps his team win. Anyone pitcher (or teammate) who whines about that is a pussy. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/30 "2013-04-03T22:51:49Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > In reverse…Pete Rose’s hitting streak ended at 44 (?) when he was retired by Atlanta’s Gene Garber on what Rose thought of as slop. He complained bitterly that Garber would throw him a change-up in a 16-4 game with 2 out in the ninth inning. Apparently only fastballs will do when a record is on the line. Consider the source. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/31 "2013-04-03T23:08:44Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > I’ve been watching baseball for almost 30 years and I have never heard of anyone doing this, or being accused of doing it. I may have missed a story or two in three decades, but… often? I just read\* the passages in \*Ball Four \*about this. Yes, it happens. - = reread for the umpth time. ---
**Author:** ![Obeseus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbce88/32.png) [@Obeseus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obeseus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/32 "2013-04-03T23:38:24Z")
In Carl Yastrzemski’s final at bat, Cleveland pitcher Dan Spillner went to 3 balls, no strikes. Yastrzemski hacked at a high one that would have been ball four and popped out. Spillner later said he was desperately trying to groove one but couldn’t aim it over. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/33 "2013-04-04T00:45:13Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Only if the pitcher is Curt Schilling (wasn’t he the one that was a dick about that a few years ago?). > > If you’re behind by two, and you can get on by bunting, you’ve brought the tying run to the plate. That’s huge! Thinking you can’t bunt in a close game in a no-hitter/perfect game situation is only an unwritten rule in a few entitled pitchers’ minds. > > Agreed, but bunting in that situation would seem to be more about just breaking up the no-hitter than trying to get back in the game. If you’re going to make up 7 runs, you can’t play small ball. Of course you can. Or more precisely down by 7 runs in the ninth with two outs it hardly matters if the batter singles or homers in terms of winning the game. He and the next 6 batters all have to score for a win. About the only difference is that after a single, you might be forced out at second on a ball up the middle when a play at first couldn’t be made. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/34 "2013-04-04T00:50:02Z")
About the only thing I can think of that I’d find obnoxious is the following. Two outs in the ninth of a no hitter with a runner on first. Batter hits a weak grounder towards second. Runner going from first to second deliberately lets the ball hit him so he’s out, but batter is credited with a base hit. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/35 "2013-04-04T01:01:34Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > About the only thing I can think of that I’d find obnoxious is the following. Two outs in the ninth of a no hitter with a runner on first. Batter hits a weak grounder towards second. Runner going from first to second deliberately lets the ball hit him so he’s out, but batter is credited with a base hit. That would be sleazy because it’s done to deprive the pitcher of his stat, not because it’s an attempt to win the game. Anything done in attempt to win is legit though. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/36 "2013-04-04T01:13:30Z")
Aside from the fact that I’d never want my team to be no-hit and that making an out on purpose devalues the accomplishment, would you want to jeopardize your own job status? If you’re a major league player your job is pretty much always on the line, and that might be doubly true if you’re a pinch-hitter who doesn’t get a lot of at-bats. If you make enough outs you can lose your job. Even if you don’t get caught, you’re taking your career in your hands if you do something like this. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/37 "2013-04-04T09:42:10Z")
Here’s the list of guys who broke up a perfect game on the final out. All Perfect Games Broken Up with Two Out in the Ninth (with single unless otherwise noted) 7/4/1908—George Wiltse, NY Giants vs. Philadelphia Phillies, (hit George McQuillen with pitch; Wiltse finished with a 10-inning no-hitter) 8/5/1932—Tommy Bridges, Detroit vs. Washington, Dave Harris 6/27/1958—Billy Pierce, Chicago White Sox vs. Washington, Ed Fitz Gerald (2B) 9/2/1972—Milt Pappas, Chicago Cubs vs. San Diego, Larry Stahl (walk; Pappas finished with a no-hitter) 4/15/1983—Milt Wilcox, Detroit at Chicago White Sox, Jerry Hairston 5/2/1988—Ron Robinson, Cincinnati vs. Montreal, Wallace Johnson 8/4/1989—Dave Stieb, Toronto vs. New York Yankees, Roberto Kelly (2B) 4/20/1990—Brian Holman, Seattle vs. Oakland, Ken Phelps (HR) 9/2/2001—Mike Mussina, New York Yankees at Boston, Carl Everett 6/2/2010—Armando Galarraga, Detroit vs. Cleveland, Jason Donald 4/2/2013—Yu Darvish, Texas at Houston, Marwin Gonzalez Here’s the link to the relevant webpage: [http://milkeespress.com/lostninth.html](http://milkeespress.com/lostninth.html) ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/38 "2013-04-04T13:26:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You never give it up to benefit the pitcher. As the batter you have to do everything you can to get on base, too bad for the pitcher. It doesn’t work the other way around though, pitchers are often suspected of tossing a meatball to allow a hitter to set or break a record. I don’t believe this is true at all. You don’t reach the major leagues by not being competitive; especially in cases like this. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/39 "2013-04-04T13:54:45Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > I play for the other team, and we’re trying to win the game. Fuck his perfect game. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741/40 "2013-04-07T03:16:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Consider the source. Pete Rose? Oh, I do, I do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2-outs-in-the-9th/654741.md?page=3)