# MLB: 2013 Postseason
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978
**Category:** The Game Room
**Created:** [September 30, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978 "2013-09-30T04:26:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/241 "2013-10-11T12:39:33Z")
I don’t know if you can run a small market team any better than the A’s. They make the playoffs more often than not, and that isn’t easy to do. You get to the playoffs and you get beaten in a close series- them’s the breaks. If they had held the lead in game 4 they’d be in Boston right now.
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/242 "2013-10-11T12:42:05Z")
For the record, the payroll ranks of 2013 playoff teams:
1. Los Angeles Dodgers
2. Boston Red Sox
3. Detroit Tigers
4. St. Louis Cardinals
5. Cincinnati Reds
6. Atlanta Braves
7. Cleveland Indians
8. Oakland A’s
9. Pittsburgh Pirates
10. Tampa Bay Rays
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/243 "2013-10-11T13:06:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> That sounds shortsighted- especially when it’s coupled with stuff like ‘this team can’t win a five-game series’ and ‘they can’t come through in the clutch.’
Did you notice those were questions, not statements? I’m not a general manager, I’m just a fan. And despite your accusation of crowing on my part, this rant was actually brought on by a feeling of frustration for the A’s fans.
I didn’t think professional baseball teams played to win the “Good, considering…” ring every year. Didn’t realize the small market teams were playing for different goals than the mid- and large-market teams. So that being said, the A’s are absolutely, hands-down, without question the best small market team of the past 14 years. Seriously, kudos to them for making the playoffs again, and if their fans are happy with losing the ALDS again, who am I to rain on their “Good, considering…” parade today?
Sorry for offending y’all.
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### Author:  [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/244 "2013-10-11T13:06:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#):
>
> See, that’s what’s wrong with the DH. In the National League, he could have.
I would love to see a situation where a pitcher is sent in to pinchhit for the DH. Just for the fun of it. Maybe he’s a better bunter and the situation ‘demands’ a bunt?
My take on the Pirates/Cards post series…
na-na-na-na-na —blfa;ldkjfaldksfj;a
Hurdle’s maneuvers were all good. His crew couldn’t hit or pitch or run or field for him quite as well as the Cards, this year.
The Cards seem to have such good young pitching going forward that they will be ‘up there’ for a few more years…that said, the best laid plans of Cards and men oft gang agley.
I hope the Pirates stay healthy next year and get a break or two. It would be nice to see them advance to an even more important series with the Cards next year, the NLDS.
Remember, though, Garcia and other bad arm pitchers will also be back for the Cards next year and they’ll likely find a way to trade a couple of pitchers for a better SS/3B. Freese does come through when it counts, doesn’t he, though.
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### Author:  [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/245 "2013-10-11T13:10:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#):
>
> For the record, the payroll ranks of 2013 playoff teams:
>
> 1. Los Angeles Dodgers
> 2. Boston Red Sox
> 3. Detroit Tigers
> 4. St. Louis Cardinals
> 5. Cincinnati Reds
> 6. Atlanta Braves
> 7. Cleveland Indians
> 8. Oakland A’s
> 9. Pittsburgh Pirates
> 10. Tampa Bay Rays
And, just for the record, about 30% of Cardinals payroll is tied up in players on the IR, or who didn’t do well this year. Two of their very best players aren’t yet making a million a year, and you can’t say Little Kitty isn’t looking pretty damned fine right now at $400000.
The Cards have lost some very excellent front office and minor league people lately, because their rep is so good. That might hurt them 5 years out, but, really folks, who can catch them the next three years?
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### Author:  [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/246 "2013-10-11T13:16:24Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#):
>
> Thanks for the tip. That HAS to be easier than how I did it.
>
> And sure I can make a generalized statement out of those 3.2 innings! In fact, i can make a specific comment. He stunk. :smack: However, up until those last 3.2 innings, he was fantastic, and I believe I pointed that out somewhere in this thread or somewhere else on the board.
>
> He took over the closer role when Grilli went out with an injury and pitched almost flawlessly until Grilli came back. In fact, even after Grilli came back, Hurdle kept Melencon in the closer role. It was only after that second bad outing that Grilli was finally put back into the closer role. But for whatever reason, he couldn’t seem to get back on track after Sept. 18th.
>
> For the record, i don’t think you can minimize his contribution to the Pirates this year. It’s also debatable whether or not the Pirates even make the post-season without him, as he stepped in for Grilli and they hardly missed a beat for a while.
>
> No, I am not that myopic. However I do think that pitching him in the Cards series was not the best idea in the world, and his 9.0 era in that series points that out. But when you look at the statistics of ANY player over a short span, they can be either incredibly great or bad, depending on if they were in a groove or not. Hitters can have a bad week, and hit .097 in a playoff series. That doesn’t mean every player that does this should never play again.
>
> Melancon should be back in a Pirate uniform again next year, and i hope so. He was an excellent set-up man, and who knows what was going on with him at the end of the year. Jeff Locke, an all-star this year with the Pirates had an awful second half of the season and was left completely off the post-season roster. His was a terrible implosion. I hope he figures out what went wrong, because he could be a great arm for the Pirates for years to come.
>
> We shall see. This will be an interesting post-season, because there will be a number of changes to the team. I will be curious if any free agents of note come to Pittsburgh after seeing/hearing the crowd during the playoffs. I wasn’t in attendance, but everyone interviewed said the sound was amazing, and pumped up the players. Even the Reds and Cards were impressed with the noise. I assume the Pirates will say good-bye to Mourneau and Byrd, Burnett will most likely retire, and other changes will occur. But for the first time in a decade, I’m interested in the hot-stove.
Mourneau…a place holder for ??? Could you possibly get Adams, a local boy, from the Cards? It would take a real good couple of players to get him. Your best prospect and a close to all-star infielder?
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/247 "2013-10-11T14:47:54Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> I didn’t think professional baseball teams played to win the “Good, considering…” ring every year. Didn’t realize the small market teams were playing for different goals than the mid- and large-market teams. So that being said, the A’s are absolutely, hands-down, without question the best small market team of the past 14 years. Seriously, kudos to them for making the playoffs again, and if their fans are happy with losing the ALDS again, who am I to rain on their “Good, considering…” parade today?
>
> Sorry for offending y’all.
If I was the A’s management and faced with this choice: make some money, spend it wisely, get to the playoffs most years with little chance of advancing OR lose money by spending a ton, get to the playoffs most every year with a decent chance of advancing, I guess I’d choose the former. The Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox can spend a boatload of money and make money no matter how far they advance in the playoffs. The A’s can turn a profit only by not getting into a spending race.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/248 "2013-10-11T15:23:47Z")
Fine, the A’s win the championship for being profitable and fiscally prudent. That, of course, is what all teams aim for in spring training every year.
Look, Billy Beane has said that the playoffs are a crap shoot and that all teams that make it are worthy of being champions. His attitude about playoffs is that you might as well roll some dice once they start, because the only thing that really matters is \*making \*the playoffs. To me, that’s a fucked up attitude for a GM to have. But if the ownership is content to lose every year in the first-round “crap shoot,” and the fans are content to lose every year in the first-round “crap shoot,” then screw it. Let them be their own version of champs. To me, his attitude on the playoffs is justifying failure. It give his coaching staff an excuse, it give his players an excuse. A MLB general manager who says that winning in the playoffs is “fucking luck” is a GM who hasn’t put the effort in to figuring out how to do it, hasn’t felt the pressure to do it, is too stupid or lazy to even try, or has taken it upon himself to redefine what the ultimate goal in professional sports is.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/249 "2013-10-11T15:33:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> If I was the A’s management and faced with this choice: make some money, spend it wisely, get to the playoffs most years with little chance of advancing OR lose money by spending a ton, get to the playoffs most every year with a decent chance of advancing, I guess I’d choose the former.
There’s another approach, one that Charlie Finley proved works in Oakland - spend as little as possible on players or anything else and \*make \*money from the team’s share of MLB TV rights.
If winning the World Series, or even getting there, was a matter of simple luck once reaching the playoffs, then Oakland under Beane should have done it by now after all these chances, right? **Happy** is exactly right - the guy is a self-promoter, not a good judge of talent, and blessed to have mediocre divisional opposition. Sports is a result-based business on the field, and he hasn’t produced.
Is there no way the A’s and Raiders can reach a deal on a new double-stadium facility? Nothing wrong with the location, with its own BART stop even, it’s just that the place is a dump.
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### Author:  [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/250 "2013-10-11T15:46:01Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> Fine, the A’s win the championship for being profitable and fiscally prudent. That, of course, is what all teams aim for in spring training every year.
>
> Look, Billy Beane has said that the playoffs are a crap shoot and that all teams that make it are worthy of being champions. His attitude about playoffs is that you might as well roll some dice once they start, because the only thing that really matters is \*making \*the playoffs. To me, that’s a fucked up attitude for a GM to have. But if the ownership is content to lose every year in the first-round “crap shoot,” and the fans are content to lose every year in the first-round “crap shoot,” then screw it. Let them be their own version of champs. To me, his attitude on the playoffs is justifying failure. It give his coaching staff an excuse, it give his players an excuse. A MLB general manager who says that winning in the playoffs is “fucking luck” is a GM who hasn’t put the effort in to figuring out how to do it, hasn’t felt the pressure to do it, is too stupid or lazy to even try, or has taken it upon himself to redefine what the ultimate goal in professional sports is.
This seems to be mostly about your feelings about Billy Beane. Did he run over your dog? Do you not like Brad Pitt?
I know nothing about him (other than seeing the movie) and I’m not even a huge A’s fan, but I think he’s right. You build a team that makes the playoffs, and then cross your fingers. There’s no magic formula that can ensure that a playoff team will advance to the next round – you hope that you get favorable pitching matchups and hope that you have better players than your opponent and hope that your manager pushes all the right buttons. If it hasn’t worked out for the A’s, the best explanation is: rotten luck.
A’s beat the Tigers 4-3 during the regular season. That makes it 6 games apiece … sounds to me like the A’s and Tigers are pretty evenly matched.
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### Author:  [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/251 "2013-10-11T15:51:22Z")
I actually agree with **Happy**. If you want to win a WS (and that _should_ be the goal), you have an obligation to get better players! It’s really not that complicated.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/252 "2013-10-11T15:53:36Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> Fine, the A’s win the championship for being profitable and fiscally prudent. That, of course, is what all teams aim for in spring training every year.
It’s not like Beane and Oakland’s baseball people could spend $150 million a year and choose not to. The owner says they can spend a certain amount of “his” money and they try to put the best team on the field that they can. Some teams can spend a lot, and for one reason or another, some can’t. Everybody seems to agree the Rays are an exceptionally well-run team, and they have pretty much the exact same track record as the A’s: four playoff appearances and a total of two series wins (both in 2008, when they lost in the World Series). The Rays have an even lower payroll than Oakland, in fact, but those are the only two teams who compete most every year with a payroll that low. If by “Moneyball doesn’t work” you mean “having a small payroll is a disadvantage,” then yes, to nobody’s surprise, you’re right. The point is that the A’s are trying to counteract that disadvantage. But yes, by all means go ahead and call Beane stupid and lazy for that.
And I am not sure Oakland fans are frustrated at this point. They’re probably more concerned with the fact that their owner is hellbent on moving the team to San Jose.
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> If winning the World Series, or even getting there, was a matter of simple luck once reaching the playoffs, then Oakland under Beane should have done it by now after all these chances, right?
Do you have a cite for that or something? But at least a complaint about Beane’s ability to judge talent is a solid complaint. ‘Moneyball doesn’t work’ hardly even means anything. We know you have a better shot at winning the title if you spend more. They can’t spend more.
> [@etv78](#):
>
> I actually agree with **Happy**. If you want to win a WS (and that _should_ be the goal), you have an obligation to get better players! It’s really not that complicated.
Do you understand that they have less money to work with than most other teams because their ownership won’t let them spend more than a certain amount?
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/253 "2013-10-11T16:03:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Do you have a cite for that or something?
For what? The fact that Oakland has never made the World Series under Beane? Well, [okay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_League_pennant_winners).
> [@](#):
>
> Do you understand that they have less money to work with than most other teams because their ownership won’t let them spend more than a certain amount?
Of course. Do you understand that not being New York, Boston, or LA has not prevented many other teams from succeeding far more than Oakland has?
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/254 "2013-10-11T16:10:46Z")
> [@jsc1953](#):
>
> This seems to be mostly about your feelings about Billy Beane. Did he run over your dog? Do you not like Brad Pitt?
Good grief. Let me stop ya right there. I could care less about him personally or Brad Pitt. Do you hear me talking about his tie or his choice of car? I’m talking about his ability to run a baseball team, and to accomplish the goals typically set out before a team and a general manager. And if Oakland fans and ownership are content with making the playoffs and nothing else, then good for them; they’ve been champs in their own minds 7 of the past 14 years.
> [@](#):
>
> But yes, by all means go ahead and call Beane stupid and lazy for that.
Seriously, Marley? Are you not reading the stuff I write for context, or are you just being disingenuous? That’s twice in this thread you’ve taken things I’ve said and completely twisted them out of context. I don’t know why Billy has no drive to move beyond “winning the division,” and I think I said as much, but yes, I did lay out some possibilities. That was one of them, but I didn’t say it applied to him. Maybe it does, I don’t know.
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### Author:  [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/255 "2013-10-11T16:19:21Z")
I guarantee that Oakland A’s management, players, and fans would like nothing better than to win the World Series.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/256 "2013-10-11T16:26:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Do you understand that they have less money to work with than most other teams because their ownership won’t let them spend more than a certain amount?
And do you understand that they have a general manager who believes winning a five- and seven-game series is “fucking luck?” He has expressed no public desire to actually compete for the prize most teams are playing to win. That’s like a quarterback drawing his own goal line on the 20 because navigating through the red zone is just “fucking luck.”
“Well, we made it to the 20 guys, that’s good enough for me. It’s outta my hands now anyway! Good luck, I’ve done my part.”
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/257 "2013-10-11T16:33:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> For what?
That by now they would have made the Series by chance alone if the playoffs were governed by chance. If you don’t (and you don’t), your statement was meaningless.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you understand that not being New York, Boston, or LA has not prevented many other teams from succeeding far more than Oakland has?
Why are you asking me about location when I was talking about payroll? Most of the teams that have reached the Series in recent years have spent way more money than Oakland does now, and almost all of the winners have. San Francisco’s opening day payroll was around $118 million last year. The year before, the Cardinals were around $105 million. The Giants were at $98 million in 2010. In all three of those years, the losing (AL) team spent even more than the champs. The Yankees were at $201 million in 2009 and the losing Phillies were also a big-spending team. The list goes on. [The A’s were around $60 million this year.](http://mrphilroth.com/mlbpayrolls/) I think the only recent teams that won the Series while spending less than that were the Marlins and the White Sox.
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> I’m talking about his ability to run a baseball team, and to accomplish the goals typically set out before a team and a general manager.
Then let’s talk about the teams goals. I think they look like this: don’t spend too much money, get a stadium built so the team can move to San Jose, and then if possible put a good team on the field without violating rule #1 under any circumstances. You’re talking about a team that traded away Gio Gonzalez when he was 26 and (I think) was under a very cheap contract for another two or three years. Those are severe constraints.
> [@](#):
>
> That’s twice in this thread you’ve taken things I’ve said and completely twisted them out of context.
I didn’t twist it out of context. You said he was lazy or stupid or a couple of other things that were equally implausible and wound up meaning pretty much the same thing. And you can’t say it’s unfair of me to say you called him lazy and then immediately turn around and say he has no drive to move past winning the division. You can criticize him for the stuff he has done, but to make a good criticism you have to understand the context he’s working in.
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#):
>
> And do you understand that they have a general manager who believes winning a five- and seven-game series is “fucking luck?” He has expressed no public desire to actually compete for the prize most teams are playing to win.
Do you really think they would win more playoff games if their GM just talked about the playoffs differently?
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/258 "2013-10-11T16:46:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> That by now they would have made the Series by chance alone if the playoffs were governed by chance. If you don’t (and you don’t), your statement was meaningless.
Good grief. :dubious:
If each series is determined by luck, with a 0.5 probability of winning, then making the Series is a 1 in 4 shot for each participant (ignoring the new wild-card play-in shit), and winning it is 1 in 8. Oakland has made the playoffs 7 times under Beane, so they should have made it twice by now, and won it once - by his own damn loser’s logic.
> [@](#):
>
> Why are you asking me about location when I was talking about payroll?
Because only location permits a high payroll sustainably.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you really think they would win more playoff games if their GM just talked about the playoffs differently?
You’re not getting that, either. Demoralization is only part of the problem. Beane’s refusal to accept that there is such a thing as building a team for the playoffs, much less to \*do \*it, is the more fundamental problem.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/259 "2013-10-11T16:47:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I didn’t twist it out of context. You said he was lazy or stupid or a couple of other things that were equally implausible and wound up meaning pretty much the same thing.
Implausible? Hardly. And I said being stupid or lazy was a possibility, I never said he was without a doubt either of those things. And re-read those possibilities, none of those are “pretty much the same thing.”
> [@](#):
>
> Do you really think they would win more playoff games if their GM just talked about the playoffs differently?
Sooo…ya really think that’s what I’m saying here?
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### Author:  [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-2013-postseason/669978/260 "2013-10-11T17:14:43Z")
I do understand! I understand that the owners would rather make $$ than win championships.
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