# MLB: April 2011 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712 "2011-04-01T02:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/261 "2011-04-16T13:16:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Parallax, **Rick. OldGuy** is right, and if there’d been a camera angle right down the foul line, there wouldn’t be a discussion. I understand the layout of the park but it remains ambiguous, with regards to the rulebook, as to whether that ball was fair or foul. It is not a scenario covered by the rule of the game, and Fenway inexplicably does not have a ground rule for it. So there should be a ground rule for it. > [@](#): > > So, now that there is a replay rule for homer/foul calls (and another coming up for in-play/foul and traps), there need to be permanent camera positions in all parks located on the extended foul lines It’s hard to disagree with this. If you’re going to use replay, make sure you’ve got cameras in the right place. But in this case the replay was really very clear; the ball landed about a foot fair according to one foul line and a foot foul according to another, on territory between the two. So is that fair or foul? No rule covers it. I presume the purpose of the line on the wall is for the umpire to judge balls that strike the face of the wall, but there’s no line on top of the wall. The Jays won the game so there’s no reason to be too riled up about it, unless you’re Adam Lind, but the whole point of ground rules is to prevent some horrifying century-long debate if this happens in Game 7 of the ALCS or something. Given how well laid out the ground rules are for all the weirdnesses of left field at Fenway, I’m amazed there isn’t a rule for the right field corner. For all I know this specific thing has never happened before, but now it has, and it could happen again. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/262 "2011-04-16T13:44:43Z")
The only “ambiguity” was that created by _parallax_. The ball landed on the foul side of the (extended) foul line, and was therefore foul. It might have helped if the yellow line had been extended over the top of the wall, sure - but even then, the available camera angles were so acute that it would have been hard to see. A close, difficult call, sure - but not ambiguous. And you don’t need ground rules to define “foul” as being “outside the foul line”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/263 "2011-04-16T15:12:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The only “ambiguity” was that created by _parallax_. Perhaps you didn’t see the play or do not understand the rules. There are two marked foul lines in right field in Fenway. One is marked on the wall; the other is the foul pole, Pesky’s Pole. The two line up from the perspective of home plate but are not actually on top of each other. They’re about eighteen inches away from each other. Here’s a picture: [![](https://irishredsox77.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/me-writing-on-the-pesky-pole.jpg) ](https://irishredsox77.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/me-writing-on-the-pesky-pole.jpg) The ball struck the top of the wall **entering from fair territory**. It was fair relative to the line on the wall; it was foul relative to the pole. Now, if the ball had hit the FRONT of the wall left of the line, but right of the pole, and bounced back into the field of play, is that fair or foul? The ball landed on the foul side of the (extended) foul line, and was therefore foul. It might have helped if the yellow line had been extended over the top of the wall, sure - but even then, the available camera angles were so acute that it would have been hard to see. A close, difficult call, sure - but not ambiguous. And you don’t need ground rules to define “foul” as being “outside the foul line”. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/264 "2011-04-16T16:30:53Z")
I’ve put up a screen grab of the ball hitting the top of the wall. [Link](https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhender4/public_html/gen_images/pesky_fairfoul.jpg) You can see the ball just as it’s hitting the top of the wall. After the ball bounced off the top of the wall, it then went behind the foul pole. So, as **RickJay** says, it appears to be fair (as determined by the line on the wall) and also foul (as determined by the pole). **RickJay** , i agree with you that it’s a silly situation and needs to be more clearly defined in the ground rules, but i also sort of see where **Elvis** is coming from. From the camera angle shown above, the ball is clearly fair with respect to the line on the wall. I think what he’s saying about parallax, though is that, viewed from home plate, looking straight down the first base line, the line on the wall and the pole do line up to form a single line. But i don’t think that reduces the confusion. If the line on the wall is imagined to extend straight up into the air, in a way that matches the parallax of the pole, then at the very least it seems to me that you could argue that the ball hit the (invisible) part of the line before hitting the top of the wall. And hitting the foul pole or foul line constitutes a home run. **Elvis** , i agree that parallax is an issue here, but it doesn’t remove the confusion. If the line and the pole are meant to be viewed as a single entity when seen from home plate, it doesn’t change the fact that a ball can both be inside the line and outside the pole. This is a situation that needs fixing, either by connecting the line and the pole somehow, or by a special mention in the ground rules. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/265 "2011-04-16T17:14:41Z")
I don’t see how you could connect the line and the pole without reconstructing the corner or moving the line on the wall to a position that makes even less sense, so really it should just be a ground rule. Logically, it seems to me it should be a home run. Contact with the wall left of the line would unquestionably be called fair, so the top of the wall really should be a fair ball as well. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/266 "2011-04-16T20:29:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Perhaps you didn’t see the play or do not understand the rules. :dubious: > [@](#): > > The ball struck the top of the wall **entering from fair territory**. And first hit ground in foul territory. Try mentally extending a line from the outside edge of the paint stripe on the wall to the outside edge of the foul pole (misnamed, it’s in fair territory). Then look closer, as the umpires (who must not understand the rules, according to you - perhaps you could send MLB a letter explaining it) _did_, and you’ll notice that the ball hit the wall \*outside \*that extended line, _before_ reaching the pole. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/267 "2011-04-16T20:58:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And first hit ground in foul territory. By this logic, a sliced shot that stays inside the Pesky Pole but continues to curl around and lands in foul territory is not a home run. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Try mentally extending a line from the outside edge of the paint stripe on the wall to the outside edge of the foul pole (misnamed, it’s in fair territory). Then look closer, as the umpires (who must not understand the rules, according to you - perhaps you could send MLB a letter explaining it) _did_, and you’ll notice that the ball hit the wall \*outside \*that extended line, _before_ reaching the pole. I haven’t seen a single angle that demonstrates this. Have you got a link to video that shows exactly what someone looking down the first base line would have seen? I just watched all the replays on [MLB.com](http://MLB.com), and none of them show the angle that would be necessary to support your contention that the ball hit the wall outside the imaginary line between the actual line and the foul pole. Also, even it wasn’t a home run, it should have been a fair ball and an automatic double. After all, if it hit the wall outside the line marked on the wall and is then called a foul ball, there’s absolutely no reason for the line to be painted on the wall in the first place. It serves no purpose if it does not mark the boundary between fair territory and foul territory. Also, if there is an imaginary line between the line and the pole, then any ball that hits between the two should logically be considered as having hit the foul pole, which would make it a home run. Even the Boston commentators noted the discrepancy in how the line and the pole line up, and argued that going by the position of the line could reasonably lead to calling it a home run. They were saying: > [@](#): > > Jerry Remy: We’ve taken a good long look and we still don’t know. > > Don Orsillo: What we do know is that yellow line does not line up with the foul pole. > > Jerry Remy: That we do know, and we do know that it did go to the right of the foul pole. These are the guys who watch at this park every day. The only sensible and intelligent way to deal with this is a ground rule specifically dealing with the situation that occurred last night. It’s both a hard call _and_ an ambiguous ruling, and there’s no reason not to make a ground rule for it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/268 "2011-04-16T23:11:23Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > By this logic, a sliced shot that stays inside the Pesky Pole but continues to curl around and lands in foul territory is not a home run. Where the hell do you get that from? 😕 Balls going past the pole _fair_ /= balls going past the pole _foul_. > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen a single angle that demonstrates this. Have you got a link to video that shows exactly what someone looking down the first base line would have seen? Okay, so you want to be argumentative. Try this, then: Use your eyes. Just like the umps did. > [@](#): > > After all, if it hit the wall outside the line marked on the wall and is then called a foul ball, there’s absolutely no reason for the line to be painted on the wall in the first place. The stripe on the face of the wall is for the (rare) case of a ball hitting the face of the wall on the fly. Same reason as for every other foul stripe on every other wall in every other park in baseball. > [@](#): > > Also, if there is an imaginary line between the line and the pole Not imaginary, just unmarked. > [@](#): > > then any ball that hits between the two should logically be considered as having hit the foul pole, which would make it a home run. As already said, the ball hit the top of the wall on the foul side of the foul line. You can continue to claim otherwise for the fun of argumentation, but you’ll have to find somebody else to do it with, Chief. > [@](#): > > Even the Boston commentators noted the discrepancy in how the line and the pole line up As well as noting that they do, in fact, line up when seen right down the line. The final authority over game rules, however, is not theirs. > [@](#): > > The only sensible and intelligent way to deal with this Here we go. :rolleyes: Or perhaps put permanent cameras looking right down the lines. As mentioned previously. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/269 "2011-04-16T23:19:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The stripe on the face of the wall is for the (rare) case of a ball hitting the face of the wall on the fly. Same reason as for every other foul stripe on every other wall in every other park in baseball. That explains the stripe on the face of the wall, which I don’t believe anyone was confused about. The issue in this case is that, from the picture, there appears to also be a yellow line on top of the wall, and that yellow line appears headed in the wrong direction. The part directly on top of the wall doesn’t seem to be pointed at the foul pole. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/270 "2011-04-16T23:47:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As already said, the ball hit the top of the wall on the foul side of the foul line. Didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/271 "2011-04-17T00:07:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As well as noting that they do, in fact, line up **when seen right down the line**. The final authority over game rules, however, is not theirs. > > Here we go. :rolleyes: > > Or perhaps **put permanent cameras looking right down the lines**. As mentioned previously. My emphasis. So, you concede that the only way to correctly evaluate a foul ball in this situation at Fenway is to be looking straight down the line, correct? And you support the idea that this is how the current setup needs to be evaluated, right? You also concede that, right now, there are no permanent cameras looking right down the line. You say as much is the quoted lines above. So, given all this, it seems to me that, in the absence of such cameras, the only officials who have an opportunity to make a judgment from the correct angle are the umpires on the field at the time. We’ve already established that none of the cameras show the proper perspective, and you yourself have rested your whole argument on the notion that what we see on the screen is actually a problem of parallax error. If all this is true, then what basis did the umpires have to overturn the initial home run call last night? After all, the umpire who had an opportunity to see the play from the correct angle called it a fair ball. And no angles provided by the cameras show the view straight down the line. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/272 "2011-04-17T04:08:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And first hit ground in foul territory. As has already been pointed out, you yourself have said it’s not possible to judge the position of the ball using the camera angles available. So how do you know the ball landed in foul territory? > [@](#): > > Try this, then: Use your eyes. Just like the umps did. They did, and called it a home run. They when they used the camera angels you claim to be flawed by parallax error, they reversed the call they’d made with their eyes. You know what would prevent this in the future? A clear ground rule. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/273 "2011-04-17T15:57:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As has already been pointed out, you yourself have said it’s not possible to judge the position of the ball using the camera angles available. So how do you know the ball landed in foul territory? Already explained. Scroll up. Now, I say this in all sincerity, to both you and **mhendo** : Have a great day, fellas. Bye, now. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/274 "2011-04-17T16:30:47Z")
It’s bizarre that some people get all offended and sarcastic when anyone happens to have a difference of opinion with them. The only conclusion one can draw is that such people expect to have their opinions deferred to on all occasions, without question or argument. :shrug: Anyway, the last week has seen the Orioles slip from 6-1 to 6-7, with 6 straight losses. I don’t expect them to make the playoffs, but i’m hoping they can be a .500 team for the first time since i began rooting for them. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/275 "2011-04-17T18:22:53Z")
Mighty tough year to be a Dodger fan so far, and we’re only a couple of weeks in. This could be a very long season. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/276 "2011-04-17T19:54:35Z")
Can we interest you in one slightly-used Japanese gyro-ball thrower? Matsuzaka and both teams would probably all benefit from a trade. ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/277 "2011-04-17T20:16:37Z")
Two good performances by Beckett and Lester, which fills me full of hope that this may end up being an alright season. The problem is the other three. Dice-K and Lackey are oxygen thiefs and I have not now nor ever been sold on Buckholz. Francona needs to switch to a 2 man rotation if we have any chance of climbing out of this rather deep hole. (Obviously I’m not serious about a 2 man rotation) ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/278 "2011-04-17T22:53:54Z")
The Mariners win, and catcher Miguel Olivo lets the word “shit” slip during his postgame interview on the radio. Rookie starter Michael Pineda continues to impress: 6 innings, 1 run, and according to the announcer during the game, he’s the first pitcher since somebody whose name I now cannot recall in 1980 or '81 to start his career with three consecutive quality starts. I’m not sure if that’s “first _Mariner_ pitcher since…” or “first _Major League pitcher_ since…”, and the game recap on the M’s site doesn’t mention it. Fans commenting on the M’s site appear to have dubbed him “Prince Pineda” (to go along with “King Felix”). ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/279 "2011-04-17T22:58:12Z")
Thank you, Matt Kemp, for saving us from being swept. First Dodger walk-off of the year, homerun style. I have the feeling that Kemp and Ethier are going to be getting a lot of votes for the All-Star game, and I say that even at this early stage. Also very pleased for my Tribe, who continue to play out of their minds right now. Another solid pitching effort for Fausto, who I think is going to spend the rest of year trying to make up for giving up 10 runs on Opening Day. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712/280 "2011-04-17T23:06:18Z")
Manny Acta deserves major props. This is the first Indians team I can remember in a long time that came out ready to play in April. It’s not like they’ve been playing out of their minds, either. They hit the ball, they throw strikes, they turn double plays. We’ll know more what kind of team they are when they have their first real slump, but I’ve been impressed so far. A key Indians-Royals series coming up! Who woulda guessed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2011/576712.md?page=15)