# MLB: April 2015 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 5, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893 "2015-04-05T18:32:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/261 "2015-04-30T19:02:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If you’re more excited by the subtlety of a manager making a double switch than by watching the best players play their best, let’s not hear from you about who the “real fans” are. Only an archaic rule held onto by a single league makes a non-player’s actions take precedence over his players’ there. If you don’t care about strategy, why watch an organized sport at all? Just watch track and field and you can see “players play their best”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/262 "2015-04-30T19:02:47Z")
So you’re granting the other 7 positions? Cool. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/263 "2015-04-30T19:04:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So you’re granting the other 7 positions? Cool. The 3B seems to be much more ready for attention during an at bat than the LF… well, maybe half-designate him a batter? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/264 "2015-04-30T19:05:30Z")
So, once again… what’s the problem with having an offense team and a defense team? I mean if it just “for entertainment” - why should great fielders with bad bats have to be watched? Why should great batters with bad fielding have to be watched? Let’s just have two separate squads and we can be done with it and then we don’t have to worry that much about the pesky strategy anymore. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/265 "2015-04-30T19:06:32Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > If you don’t care about strategy, why watch an organized sport at all? Granting your exclusion of the middle: already stated. To watch the best players play their best. Are you _really_ excited to see your team’s ace get pulled for a pinch-hitter (who, as others have already noted, may be only marginally better with the bat anyway) when he’s got a shutout going with his best heat and a sharp breaking ball? _That’s_ the “element of strategy” that makes you really love the game? > [@](#): > > Just watch track and field and you can see “players play their best”. Just watch a chess match and you’ll see all the strategy you could ever want. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/266 "2015-04-30T19:09:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you _really_ excited to see your team’s ace get pulled for a pinch-hitter (who, as others have already noted, may be only marginally better with the bat anyway) when he’s got a shutout going with his best heat and a sharp breaking ball? _That’s_ the “element of strategy” that makes you really love the game? YES. Of course. Otherwise, I’d just watch a constant action game like football or basketball - to see players “play at their best”. I watch baseball because not only does it have great athletes, but its focused on strategy. > [@](#): > > Just watch a chess match and you’ll see all the strategy you could ever want. Interestingly enough, baseball sometimes is described as a chess match. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/267 "2015-04-30T19:12:46Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I watch baseball because not only does it have great athletes, but its focused on strategy. We’re discussing the problem of seeing great athletes and seeing a non-athlete employ an aspect of strategy being _in opposition_ to each other, not complementary. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a discussion. > [@](#): > > Interestingly enough, baseball sometimes is described as a chess match. Only by people who don’t know chess. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/268 "2015-04-30T19:19:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We’re discussing the problem of seeing great athletes and employing an aspect of strategy being _in opposition_ to each other, not complementary. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a discussion. Seeing great athletes play their best and employing as aspect of strategy being in opposition to each other happens ALL the time in sports. It’s a way to create interesting decisions. In baseball it is the tension between defensive and offensive abilities - and not having separate defensive and offensive teams. In American football, there are tons of rules that handicap players for strategic purposes (such as every offensive player having to be “set” before the snap). In basketball you have things like the 3 second lane rule. In soccer and hockey you have offsides. All of these things prevent seeing great athletes play their best in the interests of strategic planning and more competitive sporting events. Heck, another example is from a few years back is - who wants to see Shaq shoot free throws? Or, more currently, who wants to see a punt, field goal, or an extra point? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/269 "2015-04-30T19:31:36Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Seeing great athletes play their best and employing as aspect of strategy being in opposition to each other happens ALL the time in sports. It’s a way to create interesting decisions. The ump says “Play ball!”, not “Manage ball!”. If you’re mostly interested in decisions, try wargaming. > [@](#): > > In American football, there are tons of rules that handicap players for strategic purposes. Etc. Not any good examples for you there - that’s all about players vs. players, not players vs. their own damn coaches. > [@](#): > > Heck, another example is from a few years back is - who wants to see Shaq shoot free throws? Nobody, but that’s because of basketball’s ridiculous time-wasting procedures, and the rules that enable them, in the last minute or two. Hack-A-Shaq isn’t interesting as strategy or fun to watch, as I’m glad to see you agree, yet it’s just as much a coach’s “decision making” and with just as much effect on the game as the pinch-hitting decisions that so fascinate you. > [@](#): > > Or, more currently, who wants to see a punt, field goal, or an extra point? You’re already starting to get silly. Don’t push it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/270 "2015-04-30T19:35:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re already starting to get silly. Don’t push it. You’ve already been there for more than a page. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/271 "2015-04-30T19:37:38Z")
So, no actual responses? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/272 "2015-04-30T19:41:10Z")
The responses basically come down to, you must be kidding me, ie: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The ump says “Play ball!”, not “Manage ball!”. If you’re mostly interested in decisions, try wargaming. This is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard about sports in general. Even the most action oriented sports turn upon major decisions. And it is those decisions that fans talk about and analyze for days/years, etc. If you aren’t interested in decisions, try track and field. > [@](#): > > Etc. Not any good examples for you there - that’s all about players vs. players, not players vs. their own damn coaches. I literally have no clue what this means. Having pitchers pitch is entirely about players vs. players - all players must play offense and defense. Coaches have literally nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/273 "2015-04-30T19:42:26Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Exactly, there is a whole other level of play going on in NL games, the manager is making lots of calculations about when to pull a pitcher in a close game. That level of strategy is part of what I love about real baseball 😃 I just want to jump on this a little bit, since it’s possibly my least favorite argument in this “debate” or “religious war” or whatever we want to call it. The decisions that NL managers have to make are pro forma about 99% of the time. I guess they have to know the rules and avoid breaking them, but the maneuvering around pinch hitting for pitchers and double switches doesn’t add to the meaningful decisions that go into strategy or tactics, it just adds a lot of opportunities for a bad manager to screw up obvious moves. Now, while I admit this has its own entertainment value, let’s not pretend it completely changes the nature of the managerial game. It adds the one or two times a year you have to decide whether to let Bumgarner hit in the eighth up 1-0 with a man on third, and a hundred routine PH for the tired guy, make the obvious double switch situations. FWIW, I’m in favor of keeping the rule split as is, _except_ that I would reverse which home fields get the DH in interleague games, so that the home fans get to see it the other way in person a few times each year. There’s probably some point where I’d revisit this if the trend of [declining pitcher offense](http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-month-that-the-pitchers-just-stopped-trying-to-hit/) continues. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/274 "2015-04-30T19:49:13Z")
> [@Kiros](#): > > I guess they have to know the rules and avoid breaking them, but the maneuvering around pinch hitting for pitchers and double switches doesn’t add to the meaningful decisions that go into strategy or tactics, it just adds a lot of opportunities for a bad manager to screw up obvious moves. Now, while I admit this has its own entertainment value, let’s not pretend it completely changes the nature of the managerial game. It adds the one or two times a year you have to decide whether to let Bumgarner hit in the eighth up 1-0 with a man on third, and a hundred routine PH for the tired guy, make the obvious double switch situations. I would argue that the decisions of whether to substitute for a pitcher can actually be incredibly interesting discussions - especially later in the season when the value of each win becomes amplified due to making the playoffs, or the playoffs themselves. It’s far more than obvious moves (and you’ll sometimes hear announcing teams argue among themselves as to whether a PH should have been called in for a pitcher who was doing well - that in itself fairly amusing at times). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/275 "2015-04-30T20:01:32Z")
I note, btw, that my question of having an all-hitting side and all-defensive side to avoid seeing bad fielders or bad hitters has been ignored. I wonder why. I am sure more than a few times would love to have a designed hitting lineup - especially Arizona, whose starting SS, Nick Ahmad, is batting .140/.234/.158 this season. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/276 "2015-04-30T20:21:54Z")
It was ignored for the simple reason that it wouldn’t be baseball. The DH may be Satanic, communist, un-American and not family-friendly, but it still preserves the majority of what makes baseball _baseball._ Switching to offensive and defensive teams and you might as well be playing…(shudder)…hockey. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/277 "2015-04-30T20:26:07Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I note, btw, that my question of having an all-hitting side and all-defensive side to avoid seeing bad fielders or bad hitters has been ignored. I wonder why. It _was_, graciously but gratuitously, previously noted that football did exactly that, a few generations ago. The introduction of the two-platoon system was pretty controversial, but by the end of the Fifties it wasn’t. But the main reason is that _argumentum ad absurdum_ does not require response at all, and excluded middles require only noting in passing. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/278 "2015-04-30T20:28:29Z")
Another one of the Angels’ ugly contracts isn’t going to be helping them at least temporarily, Pujols is out for a bit with hamstring issues. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/279 "2015-04-30T20:31:38Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I would argue that the decisions of whether to substitute for a pitcher can actually be incredibly interesting discussions - especially later in the season when the value of each win becomes amplified due to making the playoffs, or the playoffs themselves. It’s far more than obvious moves (and you’ll sometimes hear announcing teams argue among themselves as to whether a PH should have been called in for a pitcher who was doing well - that in itself fairly amusing at times). I say this with all respect to the gentlemen who cover baseball all summer, but from my experience with both my local games and [MLB.TV](http://MLB.TV), most announcers are not the brightest bulbs. My threshold would be that if you started a thread at a knowledgeable baseball message board, would 90+% of the responses tell you to do the same thing? Another thing to keep in mind is that you’re getting a lot of the same inflection points in games with the DH. If the AB is critical enough that it’s the more important part of the substitution decision, you’re pinch hitting no matter what. If the pitcher is done anyways, you’re pinch hitting no matter what. The interesting situations are when the difference in hitter quality between the best guy on your bench and Jon Lester affects the decision… but (a little counter-intuitively), the PH side of this is the the less important side in the general case. In almost all of these cases the actual question isn’t “should I pinch-hit here?”, it’s “should I keep my pitcher in another inning?”. Pinch hitters hit .217 last year - the odds of a better hitting result are not increasing by much relative to the magnitude of the pitching decision. In simple terms, what I’m trying to say is that the DH makes you trade some “he should have pinch hit there!” for “why did he let the starter come out this inning!”, which doesn’t affect the overall number of strategic decisions for managers to screw up and for us to talk about the next day. I’d never go for an offense/defense setup like, say, football, but I could be talked into letting the DH hit for another position player if you’d rather your pitcher hit. That would add a (potentially hilarious) new strategy to roster construction, as well as boosting the value of a Greinke or a Bumgarner or a Willis or a Hampton. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/280 "2015-04-30T20:35:40Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It was ignored for the simple reason that it wouldn’t be baseball. The DH may be Satanic, communist, un-American and not family-friendly, but it still preserves the majority of what makes baseball _baseball._ Switching to offensive and defensive teams and you might as well be playing…(shudder)…hockey. It’s not baseball because… it seems not much of a leap to think of the DH (specialized position) to specialized sides. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893.md?page=15)