# MLB: April 2015 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 5, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893 "2015-04-05T18:32:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/301 "2015-05-01T15:20:08Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > The argument for the DH is that we shouldn’t have to watch bad hitters hit. If this is the argument then the minor leagues and Little League shouldn’t exist at all. Half the fun of the minor leagues is watching players who\* aren’t quite\* there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/302 "2015-05-01T15:27:58Z")
I have never heard anyone on this board or elsewhere seriously advocate separate offensive and defensive lineups for baseball so I’m not sure why the anti-DH crowd is beating on that point. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/303 "2015-05-01T15:33:21Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If this is the argument then the minor leagues and Little League shouldn’t exist at all. Half the fun of the minor leagues is watching players who\* aren’t quite\* there yet. I agree. If the argument for the DH is that it is what baseball is…well that’s sort of circular isn’t it? My understanding of why people want the DH is that watching pitchers hit is boring. If I’m wrong I would love to know why people prefer the DH. To me it just makes the game easier, and I am not talking about tactics and whatnot. Teams should have weaker and stronger spots in their lineup. There should be a tradeoff for defensive performance. The balance makes the game more interesting to me. Watching a game with 9 Barry Bonds clones hitting against prime Pedro pitching with perfect fielders and robot umpires would be boring. I understand that the DH isn’t that, but it moves the game in that direction. If you like that, great, you have the AL. I don’t. It’s not like I am an old timer. I’m 32 and didn’t start watching baseball at all until 2008. But I like the two separate leagues and I don’t care for the DH. edit: > [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I have never heard anyone on this board or elsewhere seriously advocate separate offensive and defensive lineups for baseball so I’m not sure why the anti-DH crowd is beating on that point. I know no one is advocating this. But why not? If the DH is good wouldn’t separate offense and defense be better? This isn’t snark, I really don’t understand why you would prefer one and not the other. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/304 "2015-05-01T15:45:21Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Teams should have weaker and stronger spots in their lineup. And they do. > [@](#): > > There should be a tradeoff for defensive performance. For pitchers, there is _not_ a tradeoff. No NL pitcher makes a team or gets chosen for a start based on his offense, but \*only \*for his pitching ability. > [@](#): > > I know no one is advocating this. But why not? If the DH is good wouldn’t separate offense and defense be better? This isn’t snark, I really don’t understand why you would prefer one and not the other. Short answer: (A) It would change the game enough to make it a different game, not just a modernization. (B) It would require roughly doubling the MLB rosters, doubling payroll, and the owners would never agree. (C) Nobody is considering t it except NL diehards thrashing around for an argument. You can probably think of other reasons too. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/305 "2015-05-01T15:48:07Z")
The argument for DH is not that pitchers are kind of bad at hitting. If pitchers were slightly worse hitters than everyone else, then ok let them swing away. But the difference is night and day. The top 5 hitting pitchers’ BA is over 40 points lower than the bottom 5 qualifying hitters! It’s not that you’re watching bad hitting. You’re watching a guy who doesn’t even care about hitting. His team doesn’t care about his hitting. If nobody in the Mets organization gives a rat’s ass whether Bartolo Colon ever makes contact at the plate, why should we have to suffer the farce that is his at bat? I think the reason lower levels of baseball, down to little league, use the DH is so more people can participate. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/306 "2015-05-01T16:08:28Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Once upon a time pitchers were not automatic outs. False. You’ll be able to pick out a handful of exceptions, but at no time in baseball were pitchers, across the board, providing valuable contributions offensively to their teams. Here’s a list of the [top hitting pitchers in history](http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/7/28/1592457/best-hitting-pitchers-of-all-time) (based on WAR). If we assume 600 PA for a full season of hitting, that makes this group average out to 3.4 WAR - which is actually pretty good. That’s Chase Utley or Justin Upton last year at the plate, who ranked 57th and 58th on the season. But we also have to remember that these are the 20 best hitting pitchers of all time. Ever. > [@](#): > > There should be a tradeoff for defensive performance. There are no fundamental differences in defensive performance between the National and American Leagues. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/307 "2015-05-01T16:21:13Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I have never heard anyone on this board or elsewhere seriously advocate separate offensive and defensive lineups for baseball so I’m not sure why the anti-DH crowd is beating on that point. Because the pro-DH crowd keeps saying that baseball is ‘better’ with the DH because we don’t have to see certain players (pitchers) performing certain activities which they don’t perform well (hitting). If that’s the goal, then why should we limit it to pitchers, and to hitting? Why not replace a poor-hitting shortstop with his own DH so we don’t have to watch him fail at batting? On the other side of the coin, why should we have to suffer a good-hit, no field player bumble around in left field just so his bat can be in the lineup; why not have a ‘Designated Fielder’ for him? If it’s such a fantastic idea for the pitcher, why limit it to just that specific use? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/308 "2015-05-01T17:10:48Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > On the other side of the coin, why should we have to suffer a good-hit, no field player bumble around in left field just so his bat can be in the lineup; why not have a ‘Designated Fielder’ for him? We do. He’s called a “pitcher”. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/309 "2015-05-01T17:52:50Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Because the pro-DH crowd keeps saying that baseball is ‘better’ with the DH because we don’t have to see certain players (pitchers) performing certain activities which they don’t perform well (hitting). If that’s the goal, then why should we limit it to pitchers, and to hitting? Why not replace a poor-hitting shortstop with his own DH so we don’t have to watch him fail at batting? On the other side of the coin, why should we have to suffer a good-hit, no field player bumble around in left field just so his bat can be in the lineup; why not have a ‘Designated Fielder’ for him? > > If it’s such a fantastic idea for the pitcher, why limit it to just that specific use? And so you’re arguing against something that nobody is proposing. I’ve already stated why I wouldn’t make the huge leap from one DH to nine. No baseball team keeps a pitcher on their roster because he can hit. None. And the poorest hitting SS (last year Zach Cozart with a BA of .221 and 4 HRs) is still miles better than the average hitting pitcher. So why do you want to see pitchers hit? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/310 "2015-05-01T18:28:20Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > And so you’re arguing against something that nobody is proposing. I’ve already stated why I wouldn’t make the huge leap from one DH to nine. > > No baseball team keeps a pitcher on their roster because he can hit. None. And the poorest hitting SS (last year Zach Cozart with a BA of .221 and 4 HRs) is still miles better than the average hitting pitcher. So why do you want to see pitchers hit? No, I’m proposing that we take the existing idea of a single Designated Hitter for the Pitcher, and extend that to the other 8 positions on the field, and wondering why nobody on the ‘pro-DH’ side thinks it’s a good idea. And to answer your question, I want to see pitchers hit because I think that all players on a baseball team should play offense _and_ defense. Jose Altuve led the Majors in batting and in hits last year; he hit .341 with 225 hits. That works out to 1.42 hits per game. So with the ‘average’ DH, we’re realistically looking at about one extra hit in every game. That’s the actual effect of being of “miles better” at the plate. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/311 "2015-05-01T19:01:41Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > No, I’m proposing that we take the existing idea of a single Designated Hitter for the Pitcher, and extend that to the other 8 positions on the field, and wondering why nobody on the ‘pro-DH’ side thinks it’s a good idea. I don’t think it’s a good idea because it completely and unnecessarily changes the landscape of baseball. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > And to answer your question, I want to see pitchers hit because I think that all players on a baseball team should play offense _and_ defense. That’s a great sentiment, but pitchers aren’t playing offense. And their teams don’t care. Standing at the plate holding a bat, maybe waving it in the general direction of a pitch, is not playing offense. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Jose Altuve led the Majors in batting and in hits last year; he hit .341 with 225 hits. That works out to 1.42 hits per game. So with the ‘average’ DH, we’re realistically looking at about one extra hit in every game. That’s the actual effect of being of “miles better” at the plate. Use of the DH is optional even in the AL. I assume when NL teams visit they employ the DH because they realize some advantage. If the difference was negligible, why bother? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/312 "2015-05-01T19:29:47Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > This comment makes it sound like NL teams actually take pitchers’ hitting ability into consideration. I promise you they don’t. Madison Bumgarner could hit .000 and he would still start every 5th game for the Giants. Not only that, but he’d still fetch huge contract offers from NL teams when he becomes a FA. Teams don’t care if pitchers can hit because the position is already specialized. It doesn’t matter if they do or don’t, they still have to deal with their hitting deficiencies as that is part of the game they have. Do you think, for instance, the Detroit Tigers actually take Miguel Cabrera’s fielding ability into consideration (considering that Cabrera demands playing a position)? Or the Yankees with Derek Jeter’s fielding ability? Horrible defensive players will still play if they can hit the tar off the ball, and fetch huge contracts while doing so. Are these players simply specialized due to their amazingly bad defense? Or is that a consideration that must be taken into account? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/313 "2015-05-01T19:37:00Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I don’t think it’s a good idea because it completely and unnecessarily changes the landscape of baseball. And, to be fair, the NL fans here (and in the rest of the country) think the DH has completely and unnecessarily changed the landscape of baseball (the proponents of the DH also to some extent believe that it was a major change to the landscape of baseball - just that they believe its a good one). The entire side DH or DF is merely following the argument of no one wants to see a no-hit pitcher at the plate to its logical conclusion. Though, for the sake of argument, lets say that you think that no-hit pitchers are bad for the game - instead of the DH, why not just have the other 8 position players hit? Make the lineups 8 instead of 9 and then you won’t run into a whole other issue of the DH (a hitter who doesn’t have to field). Personally I’d find it a better compromise (I’d still want the pitcher to hit, but this is better than a DH). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/314 "2015-05-01T19:42:00Z")
You’re proposing that \*all \*of baseball make some \*other \*change, one that nobody but you is talking about and that changes every time it’s questioned, rather than make one lone holdout league follow the same rules as everyone else. Do you really wonder why you’re getting dismissed so quickly? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/315 "2015-05-01T19:53:32Z")
I’m not talking about making the Japanese Central League do anything :). In 1973, the American League was proposing making a change that no other league in baseball had. So why is this so shocking? Do you personally know a Designated Hitter or something? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/316 "2015-05-01T20:01:30Z")
You have a strange notion of what is standard and who is the holdout. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/317 "2015-05-01T23:44:27Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > No, I’m proposing that we take the existing idea of a single Designated Hitter for the Pitcher, and extend that to the other 8 positions on the field, and wondering why nobody on the ‘pro-DH’ side thinks it’s a good idea. For one thing, it’s unnecessary. There are plenty of position players who are good both offensively and defensively. It’s very rare for a pitcher to be even decent offensively. Even the worst “specialized” fielders like catchers and shortstops generally are better offensively than the average pitcher. Pitchers are fundamentally different than other players in that they don’t get anywhere near the number of at bats, since they pitch only every fifth day or only for a couple of innings. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/318 "2015-05-02T00:36:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re proposing that \*all \*of baseball make some \*other \*change, one that nobody but you is talking about and that changes every time it’s questioned, rather than make one lone holdout league follow the same rules as everyone else. Do you really wonder why you’re getting dismissed so quickly? I don’t know about anyone else in this thread, but I’m not proposing that \*anybody \*make \*any \*change. I happen to think the DH is ‘not a good thing’, but I accept that the American League uses it (I don’t really care about College, Japan, et. al.), and I’m not trying to change them. All I’m doing is advocating that the National League never, ever, ever, ever adopts it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/319 "2015-05-02T03:29:34Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > It doesn’t matter if they do or don’t, they still have to deal with their hitting deficiencies as that is part of the game they have. Do you think, for instance, the Detroit Tigers actually take Miguel Cabrera’s fielding ability into consideration (considering that Cabrera demands playing a position)? Or the Yankees with Derek Jeter’s fielding ability? Horrible defensive players will still play if they can hit the tar off the ball, and fetch huge contracts while doing so. Are these players simply specialized due to their amazingly bad defense? Or is that a consideration that must be taken into account? Oh for fucks sake, you’re saying Jeter’s fielding was amazingly bad? Really? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893/320 "2015-05-02T03:37:44Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Oh for fucks sake, you’re saying Jeter’s fielding was amazingly bad? Really? Well, was he as good as Ozzie Smith? WAS HE?!! Clearly the national league system is superior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-april-2015/716893.md?page=17)