# MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred ruled today that “permanent ineligibility” from baseball ends upon the person’s death
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345
**Category:** The Game Room
**Tags:** baseball-mlb
**Created:** [May 13, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345 "2025-05-13T20:08:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/1 "2025-05-13T20:08:12Z")
Well, this surprised me…
MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred ruled today that “permanent ineligibility” from baseball ends upon the person’s death. This means that sixteen now-deceased players and one now-deceased owner, who have been on the ineligible list, are being taken off of the list.
The real implication is that it now means that Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson, among others, have become eligible for enshrinement in the Hall of Fame; the Hall had changed their rules in 1991 (just before Rose would have begun to appear on the main Hall ballot), making those on the ineligible list also ineligible for the Hall.
This ESPN article notes that, as both Rose and Jackson ended their careers more than 15 years ago, it appears that the earliest they could be voted into the hall (undoubtedly by a committee, rather than on the main ballot) would be 2028.
I was not a big fan of Rose, as a person, nor his lack of real contrition (as I noted in the thread on his Hall eligibility), but I strongly suspect that this move was intentionally not made until after his death, to deny him the satisfaction of finally making it into the Hall of Fame (an honor which it was clear that he desperately wanted).
> **[Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe HOF-eligible as MLB lifts ban](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45115659/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-players-reinstated-mlb)**
>
> The all-time hit king and Jackson -- both longtime baseball pariahs stained by gambling, seen by MLB as the game's mortal sin -- are now presumably eligible for election into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.
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### Author:  [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/2 "2025-05-13T20:16:28Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#):
>
> I strongly suspect that this move was intentionally not made until after his death, to deny him the satisfaction of finally making it into the Hall of Fame
I suspect it was also made to kiss Trump’s ass as well.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/3 "2025-05-13T20:19:04Z")
> [@dalej42](#):
>
> I suspect it was also made to kiss Trump’s ass as well.
Also very likely true. _barf_
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/4 "2025-05-13T20:19:24Z")
I would hope that Pete Rose gets voted in and that Shoeless Joe and the other members of the Black Sox are kept out.
While the ESPN article refers to both Rose and Jackson’s careers as being “stained by gambling”, Jackson (in spite of his creditable overall 1919 Series performance) took money to be in on the fix and didn’t report the scheme to anyone. As obnoxious a person as Rose was in later years, his sins in baseball were far less than Shoeless Joe’s.
Let Jackson and Buck Weaver be remembered as great players, and leave it at that.
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### Author:  [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/5 "2025-05-13T21:20:21Z")
Here is the full list of seventeen people (sixteen players and one owner, I believe) impacted by Manfred’s ruling:
- Eddie Cicotte
- Happy Felsch
- Chick Gandil
- Joe Jackson
- Fred McMullin
- Swede Risberg
- Buck Weaver
- Lefty Williams
- Joe Gedeon
- Gene Paulette
- Benny Kauff
- Lee Magee
- Phil Douglas
- Cozy Dolan
- Jimmy O’Connell
- William Cox
- Pete Rose
The first eight on the list above were members of the “Black Sox.” Of the others, beyond Rose:
- Gedeon, Paulette, Magee, Dolan, O’Connell, and Cox (owner of the Phillies) were implicated in gambling.
- Kauff was banned for involvement in an auto theft (for which he had been acquitted)
- Douglas had written a letter encouraging another player to throw a game
> **[Decision on ineligibility status after death impacts Rose, others](https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-ineligibility-status-after-death-decision)**
>
> Commissioner Robert D. Manfred Jr. today issued a policy decision regarding the status of individuals who have passed away while on the permanently ineligible list. This issue has never been formally addressed by Major League Baseball, but an...
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/6 "2025-05-13T21:21:23Z")
With @kenobi_65’s permission I spun this off of the May Baseball thread.
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> As obnoxious a person as Rose was in later years, his sins in baseball were far less than Shoeless Joe’s.
I’m not sure I buy this. I would probably let both in. Jackson probably didn’t take the money and his numbers indicate he didn’t actually throw the series.
Pete did a lot wrong, but he wasn’t involved at all with throwing a World Series at least.
[Weaver](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/weavebu01.shtml) is not a Hall of Famer anyway. The only other BlackSox in contention for the hall would have been maybe [Eddie Cicotte](https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=cicott001edw). I wouldn’t vote for him either, even without the scandal.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/7 "2025-05-13T21:26:57Z")
This can only mean one thing: _Zombie Baseball._
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/8 "2025-05-13T21:45:15Z")
There is already a stadium for it in Iowa.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/9 "2025-05-13T21:57:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> I would hope that Pete Rose gets voted in and that Shoeless Joe and the other members of the Black Sox are kept out.
Where is the +1 button?
I saw a Rose interview just the other day where he got the “Charlie Hustle” nickname by busting his ass in a _spring training_ game. I feel sorry for him because while he was a leader on the field and probably improved the skills of many players, that did not translate into being a manager and I suspect that led to a lot of his issues. He probably should have been a player/hitting coach instead.
> [@What\_Exit](#):
>
> Jackson probably didn’t take the money and his numbers indicate he didn’t actually throw the series.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t historians now think his sin was knowing about the fix and not telling anyone?
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/10 "2025-05-13T22:07:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t historians now think his sin was knowing about the fix and not telling anyone?
That’s a legit argument.
Pete Rose bet on Baseball. At the time he did, it was the golden rule of baseball.
Jackson He hit .375 in 32 At Bats. Had a homer and 6 RBIs and scored 5 runs. He out hit every other player on either team.
I think if Rose gets in, than Shoeless Joe should also. I think he has the 4th best Batting Average of all time. Babe Ruth said he modeled his swing on Jackson’s. His WAR is 96th of all time.
This list of All Time Right Fielders is interesting:
> **[Right Field JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_RF.shtml)**
>
> Right Field JAWS Leaders
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/11 "2025-05-13T22:10:06Z")
The difference for many is that Rose bet on his team to win. Not condoning that, but it seems the opposite of throwing a World Series, even through silence.
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/12 "2025-05-13T22:37:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> I would hope that Pete Rose gets voted in
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Where is the +1 button?
Gross. If the character clause isn’t there to say “we don’t want to associate with or honor anyone who bragged about having sex with children” I don’t know why it would be there to begin with.
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> The difference for many is that Rose bet on his team to win.
Only Rose has said he only bet on the Reds to win. I’d wager good money that’s a giant load of crap. He was a giant piece of shit who spent most of his life saying whatever he thought people wanted to hear.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/13 "2025-05-13T22:39:46Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> Gross. If the character clause isn’t there to say “we don’t want to associate with or honor anyone who bragged about having sex with children” I don’t know why it would be there to begin with.
Wait! What? Never heard about that.
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### Author:  [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/14 "2025-05-13T22:42:09Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Wait! What? Never heard about that
Yup. [https://www.wcpo.com/sports/baseball/reds/pete-rose-sues-john-dowd-over-allegations-he-had-sex-with-underage-girls](https://www.wcpo.com/sports/baseball/reds/pete-rose-sues-john-dowd-over-allegations-he-had-sex-with-underage-girls)
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/15 "2025-05-13T22:47:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> _Zombie Baseball_
Only a Necromanfred could pull that off.
> [@dalej42](#):
>
> Yup.
As to the resolution of that lawsuit:
> **[Rose defamation suit against Dowd dismissed](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/21777131/pete-rose-defamation-suit-john-dowd-dismissed-agreement-reached)**
>
> A federal court judge in Pennsylvania dismissed Pete Rose's defamation lawsuit against John Dowd Friday after the two sides reached an agreement prior to Rose being deposed.
But here was Rose’s explanation.
> Dowd’s defense filed a sworn statement by an unidentified woman alleging she had a sexual relationship with Rose in the 1970s that began before she turned 16 – the age of legal consent in their home state of Ohio. In court documents, Rose acknowledged the relationship but said he believed it began in 1975, when she was 16. He turned 34 that April and was a star player for the Reds and a married father of two children.
So, Rose’s defense was that he was a 34-year-old married father and married, and slept with a 16-year-old girl, which was legal in Ohio. That was his defense. Though of course the woman testified that she was younger.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/16 "2025-05-13T22:52:24Z")
That doesn’t say that he bragged about it; it says that he was accused of it, but Rose himself denies it. What’s the evidence?
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### Author:  [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/17 "2025-05-13T22:53:01Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> Only Rose has said he only bet on the Reds to win.
And even if he was telling the truth, the bookies would be just as interested in the games he chose not to bet on. The only way I’d cut Rose a break was if he bet exactly the same amount of money on all 162 games each season.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/18 "2025-05-13T22:53:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> That doesn’t say that he bragged about it; it says that he was accused of it, but Rose himself denies it.
He just claims she was 16 when she claims she was 15 when it started.
Either way doesn’t look great to me regardless of the legality.
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### Author:  [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/19 "2025-05-13T22:57:20Z")
Rose should never be inducted. Fuck that cheating,lying, paedo piece of shit. Jackson shouldn’t go in either.
What should happen is the baseball illiterate commissioner being immediately replaced by someone who cares about the sport.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [May 13, 2025, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-ruled-today-that-permanent-ineligibility-from-baseball-ends-upon-the-person-s-death/1018345/20 "2025-05-13T23:10:58Z")
But can we all agree that Manfred should rule Armando Galarraga threw a perfect game. It is actually within his power.
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