# MLB Hot Stove / Offseason 2015-2016 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 2, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418 "2015-11-02T14:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/181 "2015-12-15T14:29:13Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Theres some fans and media members in Philadelphia who are raising an eyebrow at the trade. What they don’t get is a good trade doesn’t alway mean you fleeced the other guy----i think its a good trade for both squads. > > What does Philly need a closer for? They aren’t going to be in the 80+ win range for at least 2 seasons, if not more. They need prospects. > > Houston is trying to win a World Series, and was looking for a power reliever. > > I think it was a good trade for both parties, a win-win. Two teams, two agendas. It got revised to a 5-for-2 which I am not actually very happy with - it kind of depends on whether you think of Mark Appel (who was added to the trade in place of outfielder Derek Fisher) as the guy who was a #1 overall pick or as the guy who hasn’t been that great at getting people out in his professional career. Feels like five guys, including at least three legit prospects, is too much to give up for a relief pitcher and a 16-year-old prospect. (To be clear, I’m not against giving up prospects for present value - I just think the price was too high in this case, probably because everyone is trying to be the Royals this off-season.) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/182 "2015-12-15T15:34:08Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I find myself surprisingly unworried about Cueto to the Giants. I am worried that other teams are getting better while LA is losing players, but I don’t think Cueto is a difference maker for SF. Cueto should be better in SF than Cin. They have maybe the best pitcher friendly ballpark in MLB. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/183 "2015-12-16T08:26:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Its being reported that Manfried wont lift Pete Roses permanent ban. > I do believe they should let him into the HoF before he dies. At this point this whole mess seems so petty. His issues occured after his playing career ended. The most interesting thing about the whole Pete Rose situation is that A. Bartlett Giamatti’s son blames Pete for his father’s death. His son is multiple Oscar nominee actor Paul Giamatti. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/184 "2015-12-16T13:28:29Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > So the Giants signed Cueto (6 yrs / $130M) and Samardzija (5 yrs / $90M) for almost the same as what Boston will pay David Price (7 yrs. / $217M). Not bad. It’s a great time to be a middling starting pitcher. Although calling Samardzija “middling” might be pushing it, given his lifetime 47-61 record, 4.09 ERA and last/only winning season in 2011. I’d also be surprised if Cueto’s record in SF turns out to be much over .500. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/185 "2015-12-16T14:30:51Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It’s a great time to be a middling starting pitcher. > > Although calling Samardzija “middling” might be pushing it, given his lifetime 47-61 record, 4.09 ERA and last/only winning season in 2011. I’d also be surprised if Cueto’s record in SF turns out to be much over .500. There’s an article in the Washington Post about this. [Jeff Samardzija just proved athletes would be foolish to pick NFL over MLB](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/12/15/how-jeff-samardzija-just-proved-athletes-would-be-foolish-to-pick-nfl-over-mlb/) The compare Samardzija , who they describe as “by some measures…a mediocre baseball player,” with Calvin Johnson, who they call “by any measure…a football star” and a lock for the NFL Hall of Fame. > [@](#): > > Through this season, Johnson will have collected $113,816,086 in earnings, making him one of the wealthiest non-quarterbacks in league history. Samardzija, by virtue of the five-year contract he just signed with the San Francisco Giants, is guaranteed to have earnings of $122,725,000 – and have another chance to dip into the till in 2021, when he’ll turn 36. > > So a run-of-the-mill, if reliable, baseball player surpasses a generational football talent in money paid? That’s reality, even in a world in which football has surpassed baseball in almost every measure of popularity. Obviously, most people, even most incredibly talented athletes, never have to actually make a choice between one pro sport or another. But if you do have a choice, and you’re considering the issue of money for comparable levels of ability, you’d choose baseball almost every time. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/186 "2015-12-16T15:12:38Z")
Toss in the fact that you miss getting into a scheduled car wreck once a week and don’t have to play if the weather turns nasty and it’s a no-brainer. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/187 "2015-12-16T15:51:56Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Toss in the fact that you miss getting into a scheduled car wreck once a week and don’t have to play if the weather turns nasty and it’s a no-brainer. Plus which, the repeated car wrecks may very well leave you no-brained (yikes!)… ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/188 "2015-12-16T16:05:52Z")
I’m surprised that the Washington Post article hasn’t figured out why the difference between NFL and MLB player salaries - the MLB actually has a strong players’ union while the NFL’s players’ union is basically worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/189 "2015-12-16T16:19:23Z")
I don’t know what WaPo hasn’t figured that out, they’re just making the point. And of course the NFL has a weaker union. Their playing careers don’t last very long. The threat of a strike from NFL players is almost laughable because skipping even one season could mean missing out a third of their career earnings. MLB players are in it for the long haul. They negotiate from an infinitely more powerful position than NFL players. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/190 "2015-12-16T16:20:22Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Cueto should be better in SF than Cin. They have maybe the best pitcher friendly ballpark in MLB. Moving to a pitcher friendly ballpark doesn’t make you worth more, though. If it’s pitcher friendly, it would have been pitcher friendly for the guy they had instead of you, too. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/191 "2015-12-16T16:30:40Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Moving to a pitcher friendly ballpark doesn’t make you worth more, though. If it’s pitcher friendly, it would have been pitcher friendly for the guy they had instead of you, too. But it does. If Cueto was exceptional in the hitter friendly Great American Ballpark he should be better in SF. Also, Cueto will pitch in far fewer extreme summer heat/humidity games which will make him stronger down the stretch. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/192 "2015-12-16T16:44:17Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > But it does. If Cueto was exceptional in the hitter friendly Great American Ballpark he should be better in SF. His raw numbers will very likely be better (WHIP, ERA, etc.), but this does not mean he will be any better, in comparison to the person he is replacing, than he would be in any other stadium. Just about any pitcher moving from Cincinnati to San Francisco is likely to see an improvement in his basic metrics, but that doesn’t mean he’s a better pitcher in that ballpark. It just means that he’s the same pitcher in a more pitcher-friendly location. While Cueto will likely give up fewer runs in San Francisco than in Cincinnati, so will all the pitchers that he is pitching against. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/193 "2015-12-16T19:09:50Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I’m surprised that the Washington Post article hasn’t figured out why the difference between NFL and MLB player salaries - the MLB actually has a strong players’ union while the NFL’s players’ union is basically worthless. A rather more pertinent point is that there are more NFL players to pay. The average MLB and NFL team actually pays out very similar amount of money to their players. MLB has a much wider variance, with the average being dragged above the median by extreme outliers, while the NFL’s salary cap keeps everyone around the same number. An NFL team, however, has to pay like 53 guys, while an MLB team is rarely paying more than 30 guys a major league salary. The union strength certainly has SOMETHING to do with it, but the supply of players probably has even more. To demonstrate the other extreme, the NBA pays its players, on average, a bit more than MLB does (almost $5 million per player, versus just over $4 million for an MLB player) but nobody thinks their union is stronger than MLB’s. The NBA just doesn’t have many guys to pay. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/194 "2015-12-16T19:57:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > A rather more pertinent point is that there are more NFL players to pay. > > The average MLB and NFL team actually pays out very similar amount of money to their players. MLB has a much wider variance, with the average being dragged above the median by extreme outliers, while the NFL’s _ **salary cap** _ keeps everyone around the same number. An NFL team, however, has to pay like 53 guys, while an MLB team is rarely paying more than 30 guys a major league salary. Emphasis mine. But it seems to me that the highlighted section raises the crucial question. Yes, the NFL has more guys to pay, but the presence of the salary cap basically puts an artificial brake on the market forces that would drive salaries up, much more than something like baseball’s luxury tax. If they removed the salary cap from the NFL, do you really think that the fact that they have to pay more players would prevent the compensation going up, especially for the most in-demand players? If there were no salary cap in the NFL, i think it’s highly unlikely that an all-time great like Calvin Johnson would be making less money over the course of his career than a journeyman MLB pitcher. I admit that the full contours of the NFL pay scale, in the absence of a salary cap, are a little hard to predict, because even if the salary cap were removed, there would probably be other mechanisms put in place to promote parity or to control the cost of younger players. it could be that variance within the NFL would increase greatly, even if the overall average salary, and/or the overall median salary, did not change very much. But i think that reducing the equation to “How many guys are they paying?” doesn’t quite capture the full scope of the problem. Another key issue, too, is the question of contract money versus guaranteed money. Jeff Samardzija gets his $90 million, even if he falls over on the mound in his third start next year and suffers a career-ending injury. While better football players tend to get contracts with better signing bonuses and a higher percentage of guaranteed money, there are usually still millions (or tens of millions) of dollars in football contracts that only get paid out if the player manages to stay productive and healthy. And these issues like salary caps and guaranteed money are, to a considerable extent, a reflection of the relative weakness of the NFL players’ union. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/195 "2015-12-16T20:18:21Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Emphasis mine. > > But it seems to me that the highlighted section raises the crucial question. Yes, the NFL has more guys to pay, but the presence of the salary cap basically puts an artificial brake on the market forces that would drive salaries up, much more than something like baseball’s luxury tax. > > If they removed the salary cap from the NFL, do you really think that the fact that they have to pay more players would prevent the compensation going up, especially for the most in-demand players? If there were no salary cap in the NFL, i think it’s highly unlikely that an all-time great like Calvin Johnson would be making less money over the course of his career than a journeyman MLB pitcher. > > I admit that the full contours of the NFL pay scale, in the absence of a salary cap, are a little hard to predict, because even if the salary cap were removed, there would probably be other mechanisms put in place to promote parity or to control the cost of younger players. it could be that variance within the NFL would increase greatly, even if the overall average salary, and/or the overall median salary, did not change very much. But i think that reducing the equation to “How many guys are they paying?” doesn’t quite capture the full scope of the problem. > > Another key issue, too, is the question of contract money versus guaranteed money. Jeff Samardzija gets his $90 million, even if he falls over on the mound in his third start next year and suffers a career-ending injury. While better football players tend to get contracts with better signing bonuses and a higher percentage of guaranteed money, there are usually still millions (or tens of millions) of dollars in football contracts that only get paid out if the player manages to stay productive and healthy. > > And these issues like salary caps and guaranteed money are, to a considerable extent, a reflection of the relative weakness of the NFL players’ union. This response is exactly what I would have said in response. Sure the amount of players matters somewhat, but the owners have, in two very massive ways, broken the players’ union on things that would have resulted in much higher salaries, while the MLBPA has shown its willingness to even cancel out a World Series in order to fight for things that are important to them - that’s why the MLB hasn’t ever come close to instituting a salary cap (and why no one will take away guaranteed contracts). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/196 "2015-12-16T21:17:44Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If they removed the salary cap from the NFL, do you really think that the fact that they have to pay more players would prevent the compensation going up, especially for the most in-demand players? If there were no salary cap in the NFL, i think it’s highly unlikely that an all-time great like Calvin Johnson would be making less money over the course of his career than a journeyman MLB pitcher. It would certainly go up, but not by as much, I think, as you’d suspect. The main difference remains that an NFL team has more people to pay. What ultimately is going to determine the players’ salaries will be the financial success of the league. The NFLPA is a joke, and yet Calvin Johnson gets paid more in a year than most people make in a lifetime and the NFL minimum salary for an active roster player is $435,000. It is interesting to note that while MLB teams can theoretically pay their players anything, almost all of them are _under_ the NFL’s unadjusted salary cap, including eight of the ten teams that made the playoffs in 2015. There is nothing stopping a large market team from spending a billion dollars a year, short of having the free agents available to do so, and a rich team with a big corporate owner like the Dodgers or Blue Jays could absolutely do that. Boston could have signed not only David Price but also Johnny Cueto, Zack Greinke and every other pitcher for a bazillion dollars. The real limit on their spending is simply that it just isn’t worth it because MLB teams only make so much money. Beyond a certain point you cannot sell more tickets at higher prices no matter how good the team is. If the NFL had no salary cap I’ve no doubt salaries would go up - but I suspect you’d see a practical ceiling hit quite quickly. NFL teams make more than MLB teams but not that much more, and unlike MLB teams, whose revenue is largely based on ticket sales and local TV, NFL teams make a lot of their money from the national TV and media deals, which pays a team the same amount whether they’re 14-2 or 2-14. Spending more money on Calvin Johnson might let the Lions charge higher prices at Ford Field or sell more jerseys or more beer, but it won’t make any difference to their primary income stream. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/197 "2015-12-19T23:29:08Z")
Contract clause of the year: Bartolo Colon gets a $50,000 bonus if he wins a Silver Slugger Award. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/198 "2015-12-20T00:31:13Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > This response is exactly what I would have said in response. Sure the amount of players matters somewhat, but the owners have, in two very massive ways, broken the players’ union on things that would have resulted in much higher salaries, while the MLBPA has shown its willingness to even cancel out a World Series in order to fight for things that are important to them - that’s why the MLB hasn’t ever come close to instituting a salary cap (and why no one will take away guaranteed contracts). The owners also didnt mind losing a World Series. The owners are more willing to compromise with the players so they wont give ammo to those who would take away their anti-trust exemption. All sports are about to take a hit. There billion dollar local/national media contracts arent sustainable in a shrinking cable/satellite market. ESPN is basically robbing working people (including non sports watching cable/satellite subscribers) to make the wealthy wealthier. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/199 "2015-12-20T00:53:53Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > His raw numbers will very likely be better (WHIP, ERA, etc.), but this does not mean he will be any better, in comparison to the person he is replacing, than he would be in any other stadium. > > Just about any pitcher moving from Cincinnati to San Francisco is likely to see an improvement in his basic metrics, but that doesn’t mean he’s a better pitcher in that ballpark. It just means that he’s the same pitcher in a more pitcher-friendly location. > > While Cueto will likely give up fewer runs in San Francisco than in Cincinnati, so will all the pitchers that he is pitching against. This is incorrect. He can pitch differently in SF. He can allow hitters to hit more pitches with less risk of giving up a HR. He has more room for error. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418/200 "2015-12-20T02:28:40Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > This is incorrect. He can pitch differently in SF. He can allow hitters to hit more pitches with less risk of giving up a HR. He has more room for error. So can the opposing pitchers. But it is possible that Cueto can take advantage of his new park more so than opposing pitchers. It remains to be seen that he will. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove-offseason-2015-2016/736418.md?page=11)