# MLB Hot Stove **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 2, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494 "2017-11-02T14:13:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/221 "2017-12-14T16:43:10Z")
Well that was surprising. I fixed the links. Stieb is to my mind really obviously #1. People forget how great he was. That was literally the easiest pick to make on the whole list. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/222 "2017-12-14T16:57:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well that was surprising. I fixed the links. > > Stieb is to my mind really obviously #1. People forget how great he was. That was literally the easiest pick to make on the whole list. He was consistantly good for a long time, never had the peaks of some stars like Holliday but was a BlueJay for 15 excellent years. Is that the idea? Or is this just WAR? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/223 "2017-12-14T17:34:22Z")
WAR isn’t the focus, no; if it were, the list would be significantly different. Anyway, where’s the fun in just p[umping out a list from Baseball Prospectus? My reasoning is to be found throughout the lists, but players get extra credit for peak greatness, contributing to playoff teams and playoff series, and other intangibles, and where I think measures like WAR are just wrong. That said, allow me to say something controversial; Dave Stieb was just as great a pitcher as Roy Halladay at his peak with the Blue Jays. I know the W-L records are not as impressive but the man was a thoroughly awesome pitcher. It’s not his fault he lost 14 games in 1982. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/224 "2017-12-14T18:10:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That said, allow me to say something controversial; Dave Stieb was just as great a pitcher as Roy Halladay at his peak with the Blue Jays. I know the W-L records are not as impressive but the man was a thoroughly awesome pitcher. It’s not his fault he lost 14 games in 1982. Fair enough, the core of Stieb’s career was when I paid the least attention to baseball, late HS, Navy and dating/early marriage. So I don’t really know him anywhere near as well as the greats of the 70s or 90s and beyond. Maybe I’ll try build a list for the Yanks, but the top 10 is pretty much shooting fish in a barrel. The biggest controversy would be where Jeter & Rivera fit in among the 6 old time greats. I would go with the easy 4, Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio & Mantle. Then Mo, Yogi, Jeter, Whitey. Probably Bill Dickey & Tony Lazzeri to round it out. Maybe Pettitte or Guidry though. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/225 "2017-12-14T20:14:53Z")
Kinda hard to miss that top four, with Ruth on top, but how one arranges them… I think most people would reflexively place Gehrig at #2, but Mantle was probably just as good and if you credit DiMaggio for time lost to the war, he was, too. I think Berra’s gotta be your #5. I know WAR places Jeter above him but there is a good argument Berra is the best catcher ever, and not a good argument Jeter is the third best shortstop ever. And Berra won the World Series ten times, a record. That stuff has to count for something. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/226 "2017-12-14T21:03:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Kinda hard to miss that top four, with Ruth on top, but how one arranges them… I think most people would reflexively place Gehrig at #2, but Mantle was probably just as good and if you credit DiMaggio for time lost to the war, he was, too. > > I think Berra’s gotta be your #5. I know WAR places Jeter above him but there is a good argument Berra is the best catcher ever, and not a good argument Jeter is the third best shortstop ever. And Berra won the World Series ten times, a record. That stuff has to count for something. Ruth was the center piece of course and simply the greatest player ever, so no debate. Gehrig followed by DiMaggio are the ones that really cemented what the Yankees were. I place both greater than Mantle but all 3 are close anyway. I think Rivera is actually slightly more valuable than Yogi and both slightly more than Jeter who edges out Whitey. Of these 8, Ruth is the greatest RF of all time, Yogi the greatest Catcher, Gehrig the greatest 1B and Rivera the greatest Closer. Pretty nice core and those 2 CFs aren’t slouches either. Going for the next group, I think Tony Lazzeri is the greatest mostly forgotten Yankee. I feel like Bill Dickey is a bit better known. But the other 2 great lefty starters need to be mentioned to round out the top 12. Thus Guidry & Pettitte getting in the mix for top 10. Not sure where on the list I’ll put him but the actually forgotten Hall of Fame Yankee is Earle Coombs. By all reports an outstanding CF but of course not the best of his time or for the Yankees all time. I’ll have him higher than Bernie Williams but in the end he is one of those Vet Committee weak picks. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/227 "2017-12-14T21:56:29Z")
Red Sox 1. Ted Williams 2. Yaz …start the debate… 3. Wade Boggs 4. Roger Clemens 5. David Ortiz 6. Cy Young 7. Pedro Martinez 8. Tris Speaker 9. Jim Rice 10. Dwight Evans 11. Dustin Pedroia 12. Bobby Doerr 13. Carlton Fisk 14. Nomar 15. Manny Ramirez 16. Lefty Grove 17. Babe Ruth 18. Jimmy Foxx 19. Rico Petrocelli 20. Louis Tiant 21. Harry Hooper 22. Tim Wakefield 23. Kevin Youkilis 24. Smokey Joe Wood 25. Mike Greenwell That’s with very little research and may have a little more personal sentiment attached to some players’ rankings than stats and accomplishments. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/228 "2017-12-14T22:07:38Z")
Where’s Fred Lynn? OK, why Youk over Dom DiMaggio? Where’s Fred Lynn? Seems like Dwight Evans is a little low. He was better than Rice. I know Rice was a Yankee killer but Evans was a everybody beater. Also where’s Fred Lynn? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/229 "2017-12-14T22:51:34Z")
I’ll play…my Kansas City Royals: 1. George Brett (duh) 2. Amos Otis 3. Brett Saberhagen 4. Kevin Appier 5. Frank White 6. Jeff Montgomery 7. Dan Quisenberry 8. Mike Sweeney 9. Mark Gubicza 10. Willie Wilson 11. Carlos Beltran 12. Alex Gordon 13. Salvador Perez 14. Lorenzo Cain 15. Paul Splittorff 16. Danny Tartabull 17. Billy Butler 18. Fred Patek 19. Dennis Leonard 20. Eric Hosmer 21. Johnny Damon 22. Mike Moustakas 23. Larry Gura 24. Jermaine Dye 25. Darrell Porter The above ranking combines pure performance, tenure with the team, and contribution to championships. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/230 "2017-12-14T22:55:19Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Red Sox … Where’s Fred Lynn? There are lots of guys down your list who I’d rather up at bat in a clutch situation than Yaz. (Think 1975, 1978 playoffs…) OK, I’ll play… Washington Senators. 1. Walter Johnson. …um… I’ll get back to you on the rest… ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/231 "2017-12-14T23:13:17Z")
\ - Pirates, Pittsburgh, Buccos, Bucs, Cutch, Cole **One hit:** Worst Pitcher, “NL: Tyler Glasnow, Pirates” Awww Yisss, muthafuckin’ DEDICATED TO COMPETIN’ in the Central, yo. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/232 "2017-12-14T23:20:05Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > … > OK, I’ll play… Washington Senators. > > 1. Walter Johnson. > > …um… I’ll get back to you on the rest… Sad part is if you are ignoring the Twins and going strictly the Washington Senators, the picking are pretty slim. I’ll offer up Dutch Leonard, Joe Cronin, Mickey Vernon & Goose Goslin. Need to search the team all time leaders to find more, I swear there is one more good pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/233 "2017-12-14T23:29:37Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > … I swear there is one more good pitcher. Jim Duckworth? Actually, Joe Coleman and Tom Cheyney weren’t too bad. Just going by what I remember as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/234 "2017-12-14T23:41:57Z")
For the Indians C Steve O’Neill or Luke Sewell 1B Hal Trotsky 2B Nap Lajoie SS Lou Boudreau 3B Al Rosen UT infield Joe Sewell LF Manny Ramirez CF Tris Speaker RF Albert Belle or Rocky Colavito UT outfield Larry Doby (who perhaps should replace Manny) DH Jim Thome Starting Pitchers: Bob Feller, Bob Lemon, Addie Joss, Sam McDowell, Corey Kluber. Relief: Mike Garcia, Mel Harder Closer: Jose Mesa ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/235 "2017-12-15T01:00:51Z")
I like that method **OldGuy**. It seems easier to think that way. C: Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey, Thurman Munson, Elston Howard, Jorge Posada 1B: Lou Gehrig, Don Mattingly, Wally Pipp 2B: Tony Lazzeri, Willie Randolph, Joe Gordon, Robby Cano SS: Derek Jeter, Phil Rizzuto, Frank Crosetti (Most rings in sports as player/coach) 3B: Alex Rodriguez, Graig Nettles, Red Rolfe, (Homerun Baker) LF: Mickey Mantle, Roy White, Charlie Keller, Rickey Henderson CF: Joe DiMaggio, Earle Combs, Bernie Williams RF: Babe Ruth, Tommy Henrich, Reggie Jackson (Paul O’Neil) UT: Gil McDougald Starters: Whitey Ford, Andy Pettitte, Ron Guidry, Red Ruffing, Lefty Gomez, Jack Chesbro, Mike Mussina, Relievers: Mariano Rivera, Allie Reynolds, Goose Gossage, Dave Righetti, Sparky Lyle Managers: Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengel, Miller Huggins, Joe Torre & Billy Martin. Rickey would be my lead off hitter and alternate as DH/LF. I really want to start Nettles over A-Rod but I just can’t. I cheating a little by starting Mickey. He actually wasn’t a great fielding CF so I’m good with this. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/236 "2017-12-15T01:30:45Z")
With the Astros, the hard thing is figuring out where to put the current team’s players - after all, they’ve achieved something no other Astros team has, but on the other hand, none of them has a full career (or even a very long one) with the team. Strictly by WAR, Jose Altuve isn’t even in the top 10. 1 Jeff Bagwell 2 Craig Biggio 3 Jose Altuve 4 Jose Cruz 5 Mike Scott 6 Larry Dierker 7 Carlos Correa 8 Roy Oswalt 9 Cesar Cedeno 10 Jim Wynn 11 Nolan Ryan 12 Lance Berkman 13 Joe Morgan 14 Dallas Keuchel 15 Roger Clemens 16 Don Wilson 17 J. R. Richard 18 Billy Wagner 19 Joe Niekro 20 George Springer 21 Hunter Pence 22 Moises Alou 23 Shane Reynolds 24 Glenn Davis 25 Mike Hampton Looking at the list of pitchers, especially, it’s shocking how much tragedy is in there. Wilson, Jose Lima, Darryl Kile, J. R. Richard. I’m probably a bit biased against the guys I didn’t see (early 80s and before). Roy Oswalt is actually the #1 pitcher by WAR in team history by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/237 "2017-12-15T14:34:55Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’ll play…my Kansas City Royals: > > 1. Jeff Montgomery > 2. Dan Quisenberry Sorry, dude, but this makes no sense at all. Quiz pitched more innings, had a lower ERA, a higher peak, and helped the Royals into the playoffs four times, winning the World Series in 1985. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/238 "2017-12-15T14:35:15Z")
Just rumors: [Gerrit Cole righty SP](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/colege01.shtml) of the Pirates with 2 more years of arbitration left for a package built around Clint Frazier and at least 1 top pitching prospect (Chance Adams mentioned the most) and probably a few others. Clint had been rated the #1 prospect in Baseball. Cole is good but probably will not be as good in the AL east and its hitters ballparks. Yanks can apparently get CC Sabathia back for no prospects but more $$$. At a guess CC will cost maybe $15m and Cole will get $7.5 in arbitration this year. Yanks do have a stated goal of staying under the Luxury Tax level that they appear to be serious about. Would you make the trade or sign CC? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/239 "2017-12-15T14:40:15Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > Where’s Fred Lynn? > > There are lots of guys down your list who I’d rather up at bat in a clutch situation than Yaz. (Think 1975, 1978 playoffs…) Yastrzemski batted .350 in the 1975 postseason. In the 1967 World Series, following one of the ten greatest seasons a major league baseball player has ever had, he batted .400 with three home runs. In the 1978 playoff game, of couse… oh, right, he went 2 for 5 with a home run. I’d say the guy could hit in the clutch. ETA: Whatr Exit?, apparently the Blue Jays are going to make Sabathia a very generous offer. I don’t know why, to be honest. He makes way more sense in New York and starting pitcher isn’t their greatest need by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494/240 "2017-12-15T14:57:30Z")
The Yankees are try to [wrest Gerritt Cole](https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/12/yankees-pirates-discussing-gerrit-cole-trade.html) away from the Pirates with a package centered on Clint Frazier and maybe Chance Adams. I’m doubtful that would be enough but I can understand moving Frazier. He’s badly blocked in the NY outfield. Sabathia is well-liked in NY but I think it’s time to move on, especially if he’s looking for a two year deal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-hot-stove/800494.md?page=13)