# MLB Off Season/Hot Stove **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [March 11, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799 "2020-03-11T04:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/402 "2020-06-02T06:24:01Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Yeah, I gotta admit, Vizquel is a head scratcher. Should he make it in we might have a new winner of ‘least deserving’. Oh gosh, there are WAY worse than him. > [@](#): > > In terms of Jeter? 538 had a pretty good argument today that Jeter’s candidacy was iffier [than people make it out to be.](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/derek-jeters-hall-of-fame-case-was-never-in-doubt-but-larry-walkers-was-until-the-very-end/) He was a great player, but there are serious holes in the argument for his enshrinement among the Ruths, Spahns and Mays. I am not sure I’m reading the article as saying that. They are making a case that he’s no greater than Larry Walker, which I disagree with because it’s frigging insane to discount the playoffs, but point taken. In fairness, the article is not fantastically written; like a lot of such articles these days it’s a repetition of analytical numbers without an especially clear thesis or valuable insight, and repeats things.) I don’t see anything there suggesting his case to be in the Hall of Fame is at all suspect, though. I don’t have anything against this Travis Sawchik guy, but he ain’t Bill James. Anyone can look shit up on Baseball Reference. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/403 "2020-06-02T07:36:12Z")
Vizquel is easy; he doesn’t belong. But what about Rolen? It’s the modern defensive stats that push him up the ladder…10th all-time in WAR among third basemen. I guess he gets in, but when he was playing I never thought of him as a Hall of Famer. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/404 "2020-06-02T07:57:20Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Vizquel is easy; he doesn’t belong. But what about Rolen? It’s the modern defensive stats that push him up the ladder…10th all-time in WAR among third basemen. I guess he gets in, but when he was playing I never thought of him as a Hall of Famer. He’s not a Hall of Famer. Rolen is a poor choice. He wasn’t when he played, lets not use WAR to put the undeserving into the Hall. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/405 "2020-06-02T08:43:53Z")
Rolen didn’t get a huge amount of MVP support, either. More than Omar. Rolen won eight Gold Gloves (with three different teams, and very non consecutively, which are impressive add-ons) so he was certainly regarded as a great fielder when he was playing. He was on a lot of All Star teams, helped a team win a World Series,… what the hell let’s do a Keltner List! (This is my personal modified version.) 1. Was Scott Rolen ever the best player in baseball, or a serious candidate for it? Not even close. 1. Was he the best player on his team? During his tenure with the Phillies, Bobby Abreu was. With the Cardinals, Albert Pujols was. So no. Albert Pujols is a tough comparison, but there it is. 1. Was he the best player at his position? For most of his career there was a better third baseman, be it A-Rod or Beltre or David Wright. He kinda got up there briefly around 2003-2005 or so, so I’ll get him a half yes. 1. Did he have an impact on pennant races? Rolen helped a number of Cardinal teams made the playoffs; they would certainly not have made it at all in 2006 without him, and that was a World Series winning year. He was important to the Reds making the playoffs in 2010, too. He gets a yes from me on this one. 1. Was he good enough to play past his prime? Yes. 1. Are most players with comparable stats in the Hall? No. Of the ten most comparable players, only one, Ron Santo, is in the Hall. It is worth noting most of those players were not the defensive experts Rolen was and a surprising number aren’t even third basemen. The hard comparison here is Ken Boyer. Also a Cardinal, Boyer was a very good hitter and excellent fielder and a member of a World Champion. If you consider context, he was just as good a hitter as Scott Rolen. You’re going to struggle to explain to me why Rolen is a Hall of Famer but Boyer isn’t. 1. Is this player the best player ever who’s eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in? Best at his position? Hell no for best player. Maybe at position until Beltre is eligible. 1. How did this player do in the postseason? Overall Rolen did not play well in the postseason. He was great in the 2006 World Series though. It’s a wash. 1. Is there some reason to think this player is better or worse than the statistics would suggest? I’m honestly a little doubtful about WAR sometimes but I can’t prove anything here. There’s nothing special requiring adjustment. 10 How did this player do in MVP voting? Rolen finished top ten one, in 2004, and was in the voting three other times. That is below average for a Hall of Famer. 1. All Star games? Rolen made eight All Star games, which is average for a Hall of Famer. 1. If Scott Rolen were the best player on his team could that team win a pennant? Probably. Rolen’s best season was 2004 and he was great, a 9.2 WAR. Many, many teams have won championships with no player being that good. He real peak baseline wasn’t 9.2 though; he only got about 6 one other year and just barely. HE was really like a 5-5.5 guy, and not many champions have not had a better player than that. Some have. A reluctant yes here. 1. Did Rolen uphold standards of sportsmanship? Did he have some special impact on baseball history, good or bad? As far as I know he was an ordinary guy. That’s not a lot of yesses. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/406 "2020-06-02T10:05:14Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > He’s not a Hall of Famer. Rolen is a poor choice. He wasn’t when he played, lets not use WAR to put the undeserving into the Hall. I agree, but the Rolen train is rolling. In his three years on the ballot he’s gone from 10% to 17% to 35%. He might stagnate in the thirties, but with no locks on next years ballot, he may well take another giant step. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/407 "2020-06-02T10:21:44Z")
I’m glad for Walker. I really didn’t think he would make it. Has there been any mention what team he’s going in as yet? It would be cool to see a Rockies cap in the hall, although that’s not a certainty? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/408 "2020-06-02T23:32:05Z")
It would be interesting to apply the Keltner/Rickjay test to Adrian Beltre. It’s possible to ignore WAR on borderline candidates, but with 95.6 bWAR, Beltre is going to the Hall. A defensive wizard but only 5 gold gloves. 3,166 hits including 477 homers, but only two top five finishes in the MVP voting. Only four all-star game appearances. A bit of a dud in the postseason. It feels like he snuck up on everybody. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/409 "2020-06-03T00:52:43Z")
Sounds fun! 1. Was Adrian Beltre ever the best player in baseball, or a serious candidate for it? No. This is a question few HOFers ever get a yes on - I mean, there aren’t 25 players in history you can firmly say yes to this question. It applies to Willie Mays, Ruth, Cobb, Schmidt, Bonds, DiMaggio, Wagner, Trout, a few others. Probably Oscar Charleston, and maybe Josh Gibson. It’s awfully useful because if the answer is yes, you’re 90% done. 1. Was he the best player on his team? At times. He was probably the best player the Rangers had for awhile, and for a few shining seasons he was the best player the Dodgers or Red Sox had. 1. Was he the best player at his position? In the early 2010s he was. His main competition in the AL was Evan Longoria and the NL had no one standout. He was better than Longoria, but in fairness Longoria was much better on “Desperate Housewives.” 1. Did he have an impact on pennant races? The 2004 Dodgers absolutely do not win the division or make the playoffs without Beltre. He also helped the Rangers win some division titles. I give him a yes. 1. Was he good enough to play past his prime? Yes, obviously. Hew was still a good ballplayer at age 39. 1. Are most players with comparable stats in the Hall? Yes. Of the ten most comparable players to Beltre, eight are in the Hall; only Rafael Palmiero and Carlos Beltran are not. As with Rolen, honestly the comparables aren’t very comparable. The only one of the ten who played third base was George Brett, and their similarity score is 785, which honestly is not very similar; they had different skill sets. The most similar is Dave Winfield at 866, and Winfield was an outfielder. 1. Is this player the best player ever who’s eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in? Best at his position? Obviously he’s not Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens. This is an unfair question when they are out; if you discount them then maybe. He is certainly the best third baseman, until A-Rod is eligible. 1. How did this player do in the postseason? Beltre played okay in the postseason. No real credit here, no real debit. 1. Is there some reason to think this player is better or worse than the statistics would suggest? Beltre was one of the best defensive third baseman who ever lived. I mean, he was just a marvel to watch; he did EVERYTHING well. He could make errors (which most third basemen do) but he was quick to both sides, charged bunts and dribblers like no one’s business, covered miles of foul territory, and always had his head in the game. He was just sensational. I never saw Brooks Robinson and I’ll concede the metrics that say he was greater, but man, Beltre was something. 10 How did this player do in MVP voting? Beltre was the runner-up to Barry Bonds in 2004, and I am serious when I say that despite Bonds’s .609 OBP, I would have voted for Beltre. He had five other top ten finishes. Generally pretty good. 1. All Star games? Beltre only made four All Star teams. It’s actually kind of weird. He did NOT make the All Star team in 2004, when he batted .334 with 48 home runs and was an amazing defensive infielder. 1. If Adrian Beltre were the best player on his team could that team win a pennant? It happened, so yes. 1. Did Beltre uphold standards of sportsmanship? Did he have some special impact on baseball history, good or bad? Like Rolen, he seemed like a good guy but has no special impact. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/410 "2020-06-03T01:09:37Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > I’m glad for Walker. I really didn’t think he would make it. Has there been any mention what team he’s going in as yet? It would be cool to see a Rockies cap in the hall, although that’s not a certainty? I believe he said yesterday that he would be wearing a Rockies cap, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/411 "2020-06-05T01:02:12Z")
I bet since the Red Sox are a high profile team they are taking more time to make sure they have plenty of evidence before they say the Sox cheated. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/412 "2020-06-05T03:01:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sounds fun! > > … > > Like Rolen, he seemed like a good guy but has no special impact. Thanks, that was a good assessment. Beltre will also be remembered for being an [on-field prankster.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0iiwpkPWfw) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/413 "2020-06-05T04:12:00Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I believe he said yesterday that he would be wearing a Rockies cap, yes. I mean, ultimately it’s not actually up to the player; the HOF likes to respect their wishes but they’d refuse a silly one. In Walker’s case anything other than the Rockies would be ridiculous. He played sixty percent of his career there and it’s where almost all his major accomplishments took place. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/414 "2020-06-05T10:05:17Z")
Dodger fans are heading to Anaheim for the Angels home opener against the Astros. 😛 > **[Dodgers fan group ready to let the Astros hear it — at Angel Stadium](https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2020-01-25/dodgers-astros-angels-cheating-anthony-rendon-pantone)** > > The Angels have agreed to sell Dodgers fan group Pantone 294 a block of as many as 800 tickets when the Astros visit Angel Stadium in April. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/415 "2020-06-05T11:36:38Z")
Do the Angels sell out their home opener well in advance? Dodgers fans could want to be there, but I bet they’re not willing to shell out $$$ to do so. Plus, the second game of the season is usually an easy ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/416 "2020-06-05T13:28:42Z")
Can’t blame Dodgers fans for doing that . ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/417 "2020-06-05T15:54:25Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Do the Angels sell out their home opener well in advance? Dodgers fans could want to be there, but I bet they’re not willing to shell out $$$ to do so. Plus, the second game of the season is usually an easy ticket. According to the article, the Angels actually offered the group a block of seats in the upper level in advance. Smart of the team to do this because the Dodger fans can yell and scream but they wont be close enough to the action to do anything crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/418 "2020-06-08T05:33:55Z")
Astros hire Dusty Baker as manager . He’s 70 and last managed in 2017. He probably stays no more than 3 years. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/419 "2020-06-08T07:41:49Z")
Baker was hired, I suspect, simply because an old guy with no previous connection to the team seems like a guy who definitely doesn’t have the stink of the current scandal on him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/420 "2020-06-09T03:38:28Z")
Mr. National Ryan Zimmerman resigns for 1 1 year 2 million contract. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/28/ryan-zimmermans-past-present-future-is-with-washington-nationals/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/28/ryan-zimmermans-past-present-future-is-with-washington-nationals/) ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/421 "2020-06-09T07:43:53Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Astros hire Dusty Baker as manager . He’s 70 and last managed in 2017. He probably stays no more than 3 years. I expect only one year. The Astros have enough talent that I could manage them and not mess up. I assume they just want to move on from sign stealing and figure there will be more stories from other teams. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799.md?page=22)