# MLB Off Season/Hot Stove **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [March 11, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799 "2020-03-11T04:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/82 "2020-03-25T01:06:49Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Revoke the championship and forfeit Verlander to the team they cheated out of the Series. Send Greinke to the Padres. 😃 Forced trades sound horribly complex. Do the Astros keep paying for Verlander but he plays for the Dodgers? Maybe that would work. It would serve to reduce their luxury cap and take away a good contract. But I would let the Dodgers choose who to take. Verlander and Greinke only have 2 years left on their contracts. They might want Altuve or Bregman. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/83 "2020-03-25T01:09:36Z")
“Cheating by stealing signs with electronic devices” is worse than stealing signs by the runner at 2nd making gestures to the hitter? I guess as an Astros fan I am probably biassed, but to me, stealing signs is stealing signs and I suspect every team does it. Am I wrong? Are some teams so honest that they won’t steal a sign even if they can? Does using “devices” make it a crime but not using “devices” is not a crime? Seriously, I wonder what you all think. (I guess you can tell what I think.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/84 "2020-03-25T01:25:52Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > “Cheating by stealing signs with electronic devices” is worse than stealing signs by the runner at 2nd making gestures to the hitter? I guess as an Astros fan I am probably biassed, but to me, stealing signs is stealing signs and I suspect every team does it. Am I wrong? Yes. You are both wrong and biased. First off, the game is played by the players, not cameras in the center field stands. Second, the interplay between the pitcher and batter is the single most important interaction in the game. The fact that the batter doesn’t know what is being pitched, is the single most important aspect of that interaction. Frankly, if electronic devices were allowed, I’d have the catcher and pitcher fitted with earpieces so the “pitching coordinator” could tell both of them silently what pitch should come next. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/85 "2020-03-25T02:34:12Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > “Cheating by stealing signs with electronic devices” is worse than stealing signs by the runner at 2nd making gestures to the hitter? I guess as an Astros fan I am probably biassed, but to me, stealing signs is stealing signs and I suspect every team does it. Am I wrong? Are some teams so honest that they won’t steal a sign even if they can? Does using “devices” make it a crime but not using “devices” is not a crime? Seriously, I wonder what you all think. (I guess you can tell what I think.) Absolutely it’s worse. It’s equivalent to a player becoming a better slugger by working out and bulking up (without PEDs) to increase body strength, or wearing some contraption under his uniform with springs and braces to increase his swing power. The former is an athlete improving himself physically (which is what athletes are supposed to do), the latter is using a technological shortcut. I’m not a big baseball guy but I know football so that’s where I can draw my references (so forgive me). But there are times when a defense has been able to figure out “tells” from QBs and to use them to anticipate and beat plays. Reportedly the Seahawks did it in Super Bowl 48 and shut down Payton Manning’s record-breaking offense. Reportedly the Seahawks did it again last Monday against Jimmy Garoppolo to beat the 49ers and end their perfect record. Yet when the Patriots did something similar by secretly recording their opponents in practice (aka “Spygate”) it was a major scandal. In the NFL there is nothing wrong with naturally figuring out your opponent’s schemes through observation and countering them, that’s considered smart play. Doing so via technology on the other hand is cheating. I don’t know if learning signs through normal observation and relaying them is cheating (I assume it is) but at least you’re doing it using your own ability, which itself should make it less of a scandal. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/86 "2020-03-25T02:51:52Z")
Reddit megathread with a bunch of examples: > **[r/baseball - Astros Sign Stealing Video Footage Megathread (For Complete...](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/dw1u4g/astros_sign_stealing_video_footage_megathread_for/)** > > 7,546 votes and 4,828 comments so far on Reddit The really messed up thing is the installation of the centerfield camera and the relay to the dugout. If true, the whole organization was involved in this shitty practice. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/87 "2020-03-25T02:55:12Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > “Cheating by stealing signs with electronic devices” is worse than stealing signs by the runner at 2nd making gestures to the hitter? … Yes, it’s worse, because only the home team can get away with it. Thus the unfair advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/88 "2020-03-25T03:53:55Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > Yes, it’s worse, because only the home team can get away with it. Thus the unfair advantage. That’s a good point I hadn’t even considered. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/89 "2020-03-25T03:59:27Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > “Cheating by stealing signs with electronic devices” is worse than stealing signs by the runner at 2nd making gestures to the hitter? Yes, because the former is against the rules, and the latter is not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/90 "2020-03-25T04:38:23Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not to rehash the Pete Rose stuff, but betting on your _own_ team presents plenty of opportunities for abuse (for example if you overuse a top reliever because you have a lot of dough riding on a particular game). I’m not trying to defend gambling but stealing pitches using cameras and then signaling the batter doesn’t seem a lot better than gambling on baseball games. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/91 "2020-03-25T05:06:31Z")
Cheating in advancement of winning is bad, but it is, after all, trying to win. Gambling on baseball games calls into question whether or not the participants are even trying to win, and therefore bring the entire enterprise into disrepute. That can destroy MLB. In business terms, gambling is a conflict of interest. The standard penalty for acting in an undeclared conflict of interest in ANY business I have ever been in is you’re fired and never welcome back. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/92 "2020-03-25T09:37:34Z")
So the Mets get a new manager and he is almost immediately involved in a scandal. Typical. There is no way they could have known but it’s typical Mets’ luck. No way Beltran did not know about this. Will he have to resign? If they can prove he was involved in devising the system, I think definitely. But what if he was just taking advantage when he was at bat? How many ABs did he have in the series? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/93 "2020-03-25T09:52:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Cheating in advancement of winning is bad, but it is, after all, trying to win. > > Gambling on baseball games calls into question whether or not the participants are even trying to win, and therefore bring the entire enterprise into disrepute. That can destroy MLB. > > In business terms, gambling is a conflict of interest. The standard penalty for acting in an undeclared conflict of interest in ANY business I have ever been in is you’re fired and never welcome back. When people get the idea that the results have been predetermined and basically scripted to guarantee an outcome, like pro wrestling, they won’t watch. Unless it really gets to be like pro wrestling. Mike Trout steps up to the plate and pulls out a microphone, and points at the pitcher’s mound: “Listen up, Verlander! You think you’re the baddest pitcher in the league? I got news for you, I’ll eat your fastballs for breakfast! It’s Home Run City in Anaheim, Justin-boy! THE TROUT HAS NO DOUBT!!!” _flex_ ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/94 "2020-03-25T10:03:40Z")
So will there now be a narrative (accurate or not) that the underdog Nationals outsmarted the diabolical, cheating Astros? As a Nats fan, I could live with that. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/95 "2020-03-25T21:44:02Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > So will there now be a narrative (accurate or not) that the underdog Nationals outsmarted the diabolical, cheating Astros? As a Nats fan, I could live with that. I’m guessing that the Nationals did what the Yankees tried in the ALCS: multiple sign sequences, shuffled during an inning, even with nobody on base. The rumors have been around for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/96 "2020-03-25T22:20:34Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I’m guessing that the Nationals did what the Yankees tried in the ALCS: multiple sign sequences, shuffled during an inning, even with nobody on base. The rumors have been around for a long time. [WaPo article on the topic.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/sign-stealing-in-the-world-series-the-nationals-had-a-plan-just-in-case/2019/11/13/f8bdce7a-0640-11ea-8292-c46ee8cb3dce_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/97 "2020-03-25T23:56:12Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > [WaPo article on the topic.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/sign-stealing-in-the-world-series-the-nationals-had-a-plan-just-in-case/2019/11/13/f8bdce7a-0640-11ea-8292-c46ee8cb3dce_story.html) > [@](#): > > There is some circumstantial evidence that something was up with the Astros. In 2016, their hitters struck out 23.4 percent of the time, the fourth-highest rate in the game. In 2017, the year The Athletic report said the camera was installed, that rate dropped to 17.3 percent, the lowest in baseball. At home in 2017, the Astros struck out 16.7 percent of the time, as opposed to 17.9 percent on the road. This can’t be explained by stealing signs because of the road rate, but how did they manage that? The roster didn’t turn over that much. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/98 "2020-03-26T01:39:12Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > This can’t be explained by stealing signs because of the road rate, but how did they manage that? The roster didn’t turn over that much. Weird. Neither did the hitting coach, Dave Hudgens. [He was there from 2015-2018.](https://climbingtalshill.com/2018/11/09/astros-hitting-coach-hudgens-departs-staff/) My guess is either their K rate differences fall within the expected year to year distribution for a team—the dumb luck approach—or that they implemented a more analytic-based approach to hitting. Or they were cheating better OTR, using something like a fan in the stands with binos and a signalling device. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/99 "2020-03-26T01:48:55Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > When people get the idea that the results have been predetermined and basically scripted to guarantee an outcome, like pro wrestling, they won’t watch. > > Unless it really gets to be like pro wrestling. > > Mike Trout steps up to the plate and pulls out a microphone, and points at the pitcher’s mound: > > “Listen up, Verlander! You think you’re the baddest pitcher in the league? I got news for you, I’ll eat your fastballs for breakfast! It’s Home Run City in Anaheim, Justin-boy! THE TROUT HAS NO DOUBT!!!” _flex_ I suggested a form of Sumo Baseball but noone seemed interested: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21948678&postcount=623](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21948678&postcount=623) “Allow batters to charge the mound on any called inside pitch, but the fight must take place on the dirt part of the mound only. If either player comes off the mound, that player is ejected from the game. Any players other than the batter and the pitcher that steps on the dirt part of the mound gets ejected (but the catcher (or any other player) can try to tackle the batter before he gets to the mound at which point the batter has to re-enter the batter’s box and may not charge the mound again that game unless he gets hit by the ball).” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/100 "2020-03-26T02:55:16Z")
If Sumo Baseball is a thing then Dae-Ho Lee could make a return to the MLB. He’s built for that kind of play; his belly even has its own Twitter account: [https://mobile.twitter.com/daeholeesbelly](https://mobile.twitter.com/daeholeesbelly) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799/101 "2020-03-26T03:11:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Cheating in advancement of winning is bad, but it is, after all, trying to win. > > Gambling on baseball games calls into question whether or not the participants are even trying to win, and therefore bring the entire enterprise into disrepute. That can destroy MLB. > > In business terms, gambling is a conflict of interest. The standard penalty for acting in an undeclared conflict of interest in ANY business I have ever been in is you’re fired and never welcome back. But the betting involving the Reds was always in favor of the reds winning. The fact that he didn’t bet on them in 4 games and the size of the bet changed from game to game presents some sort of conflict but doesn’t it reduce the appearance of conflict (or actual conflict) given the direction of the betting? I don’t think he should be banned from the hall of fame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-off-season-hot-stove/842799.md?page=6)