# MLB offseason thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 3, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733 "2009-01-03T20:16:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/41 "2009-01-07T17:15:30Z")
ESPN was reporting yesterday that the Giants were never that serious about Manny. So I think it’s probably the Dodgers or the Dodgers, and sooner or later the price will come down if nobody else is really interestd. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/42 "2009-01-07T17:23:11Z")
How about a team like the Angels? That’s a team which will win the AL West, but they haven’t been able to do anything past that. Manny’s defense isn’t going to get any better. Also, Manny might be able to get over the “Manny being Manny…” bullshit if he’s not on an ESPN team. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/43 "2009-01-07T17:23:16Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Baltimore has the money. They can’t seem to get a good player to take their money. That is why they were my example. Also his defense is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is more than outweighed by his incredible hitting ability. Long before he took a Japan deal, Boras would find a way to get $27 million out of the Yanks or Mets for a single year or settle for a $42 million contract for two years from the Dodgers or Giants. He might even end up on the Nationals, another team trying to find top players to overpay. > I think it is more about Boras asking for 4 years and $100 million. It is just too much. Sometimes even Boras asks for too much, but all he needs to do to look OK is get a contract worth more than what the Red Sox were going to pay. Yeah, but there’s been very little talk about Manny, at least relative to another slugger with comparable stats coming into free agency. I’m SURE Boras is a part of the problem, but it doesn’t seem to me that he’s the entire problem. At least not yet. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/44 "2009-01-07T17:28:10Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Yeah, but there’s been very little talk about Manny, at least relative to another slugger with comparable stats coming into free agency. I’m SURE Boras is a part of the problem, but it doesn’t seem to me that he’s the entire problem. At least not yet. There is also no talk about Bobby Abreu for some reason and his Rep is not bad at all and his agent is benign. It is just an odd year. Burrell settle for what would have been considered an extreme bargain last year. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/45 "2009-01-07T17:28:11Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > My gut feeling on Andruw Jones is that his problems are between his ears. Unless he’s nursing an injury that no one knows about, he should have two or three more years left in him before his age starts sapping him of his ability. He has always struck out too much, which I have a problem with, but he should still be good for .250/30/90, a dozen steals or better and a Gold Glove on any given year, I would think. Maybe playing in a pitcher’s park like Dodger Stadium got into his head? Maybe he needs to go to Colorado or something, where he doesn’t have to worry about trying to muscle every pitch over the fence? Just a thought… Agreed. All the “Greatest Hitter Since Mickey Mantle” talk has always played with his head and is probably the sole reason why he was always “very good” instead of “great.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/46 "2009-01-07T17:38:52Z")
$42 million for 2 years is a deal I think the Dodgers would be willing to make. If we could keep Manny, get Hoffman, and deal for another starting pitcher, I think we would seriously have a shot at the Series. That would enable us to trade Pierre, which would give Ethier and Kemp everyday jobs and keep their bats in the order. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/47 "2009-01-07T17:45:02Z")
No mention of Pat Burrell to the Rays for pennies on the dollar? How this deal got done so quietly and for such a low price tag, I still can’t wrap my head around. The Rays are a few middle relievers away from being the best team in the AL (again). (Hopefully they can make up for that Proctor signing.) ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/48 "2009-01-07T17:47:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I don’t see an NL team being the top bidder, not with his defensive deficit that can only get worse for a guy in his mid-thirties already. His likeliest spot is with a ramshackle AL team that needs a gate attraction as DH and doesn’t have a clubhouse chemistry worth protecting. Problem is, those teams don’t have the money Boras wants anyway, but do have young players whose minds they don’t want poisoned. He may just be SOL here, power and plate coverage notwithstanding. > > So I’ll go with a ramshackle \*Japanese \*team instead. Those imitation dreads would go well with a Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters uni. See, I don’t get it. “Clubhouse chemistry worth protecting?” Manny Ramirez did so much harm to Boston’s “clubhouse chemistry” that they won two World Series with him in left field. I mean, what in Manny’s history suggests that he “poisons the minds of young players” in any meaningful way? Which of the Red Sox young players did Manny poison such that they ceased to become good players or teammates? Jon Papelbon? Jon Lester? Dustin MVP Pedroia? Youkilis? Ellsbury? Bucholtz? The whole wailing and rending of garments over Manny Ramirez’s supposedly awful affect on clubhouse chemistry is completely manufactured. His teams haven’t always like him, but they have always been winning teams and he’s always been a major factor in the winning. He’s never shown any evidence that his performance dips once he has a good contract, which is another thing he’s being accused of right now. So he doesn’t run out a ground ball once in a while? Big honking deal. I think he’ll end up with the Dodgers. The Mets, I think, are overtaxed financially and need to finish building a rotation. The Yankees… well, I sure hope not. But the Dodgers have an opening, they have the money, and they have a fan base that warmed to the guy when he hit an estimated four trillion home runs for them last summer. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/49 "2009-01-07T18:04:51Z")
The Sox had enough other strong personalities, and strong performers, that they could keep the Manny incidents in-house. Mostly. You listed a lot of them yourself. Even so, when Francona took a poll of the team’s leaders, the only other player who wanted to keep him around was Ortiz. As for the front office, remember that a couple of years ago they put Manny on irrevocable waivers - and no one took him, not even the Yanks. As for “what he would have gotten from Boston”, the answer is Squat. There were 2 club option years left at $20M each, but those were never going to be picked up, especially not after his one-man on-field strike last summer. Just ftr, the story behind his trade demand 2 years ago was that he actually wanted to stay - but his wife wanted to get him to a different city from his girlfriend, and the demands were actually from _her_. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/50 "2009-01-07T18:19:33Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > There is also no talk about Bobby Abreu for some reason and his Rep is not bad at all and his agent is benign. It is just an odd year. Burrell settle for what would have been considered an extreme bargain last year. This is very true. Abreu has some gas left in the tank, no? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/51 "2009-01-07T18:20:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Sox had enough other strong personalities, and strong performers, that they could keep the Manny incidents in-house. Mostly. You listed a lot of them yourself. So he must of caused a lot of chaos when he was an Indian. > [@](#): > > Even so, when Francona took a poll of the team’s leaders, the only other player who wanted to keep him around was Ortiz. That sounds like you taking a rumor for fact, since I doubt you would be in position to know, but even if it is true,what does it matter?. If Manny’s teammates didn’t like him do you think they tried less? Why on earth would they? From all appearances Kent and Bonds hated each other. There was massive friction on the 1986 Mets. Did it make those teams play worse? > [@](#): > > As for the front office, remember that a couple of years ago they put Manny on irrevocable waivers - and no one took him, not even the Yanks. That might have something to do with the fact that guaranteeing a guy 20 million dollars a year in his mid 30’s is a pretty big risk. It wasn’t like they were getting him for free there. > [@](#): > > As for “what he would have gotten from Boston”, the answer is Squat. There were 2 club option years left at $20M each, but those were never going to be picked up, especially not after his one-man on-field strike last summer. I don’t actually believe he struck, but that isn’t really anything I’m in position to know. > [@](#): > > Just ftr, the story behind his trade demand 2 years ago was that he actually wanted to stay - but his wife wanted to get him to a different city from his girlfriend, and the demands were actually from _her_. Source? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/52 "2009-01-07T18:25:14Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > This is very true. Abreu has some gas left in the tank, no? Abreu reportably is currently asking for 16 million a year. That just isn’t going to happen. The problem for these players is there are a lot of good hit/no field players out there (Abreu, Dunn, Ramirez etc) and not a whole of demand. So teams can be patient and wait for them to become cheaper. I wouldn’t expect any of them to sign until they lower there demands significantly. Ibanez made out like a bandit, but I don’t think anyone else will. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/53 "2009-01-07T18:27:33Z")
Can’t wait until Bonds gets back in the market. This should be fun to watch. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/54 "2009-01-07T18:48:51Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > No mention of Pat Burrell to the Rays for pennies on the dollar? How this deal got done so quietly and for such a low price tag, I still can’t wrap my head around. The Rays are a few middle relievers away from being the best team in the AL (again). (Hopefully they can make up for that Proctor signing.) Post 44, I called it a bargain. > [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > This is very true. Abreu has some gas left in the tank, no? Yes but he is asking too much, just like Manny. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Abreu reportably is currently asking for 16 million a year. That just isn’t going to happen. The problem for these players is there are a lot of good hit/no field players out there (Abreu, Dunn, Ramirez etc) and not a whole of demand. So teams can be patient and wait for them to become cheaper. I wouldn’t expect any of them to sign until they lower there demands significantly. Ibanez made out like a bandit, but I don’t think anyone else will. Abreu is not a no field, especially if you shifted him to left. But the availability of all these bats is also crushing the trade market. Which brings me back to **Silenus**. What do you think the Dodgers can get for Pierre? I doubt it will be more than a bucket of balls and even that might require cash being included by LA. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/55 "2009-01-07T19:04:13Z")
Abreu was decent in his prime, but he is not good anymore. He isn’t really better at this point than Ramirez/Dunn From [Bobby Abreu versus… Brett Gardner? | The Poor Man's Analyst](http://poormansanalyst.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/bobby-abreu-v-brett-gardner/) "There is no way around it, Bobby Abreu was a horrible defender in right field last season. He rated minus-24 plays according to the Fielding Bible, good for second worst in the game, and minus-14 in each of the previous two seasons. Revised Zone Rating had him rated as 4th worst in the major leagues in 2008. A conservative expectation for the aging Abreu next season would be around minus-20 plays versus the average right fielder. That would put him at 16 runs below average, since each play is worth .8 runs ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/56 "2009-01-07T19:10:45Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Which brings me back to **Silenus**. What do you think the Dodgers can get for Pierre? I doubt it will be more than a bucket of balls and even that might require cash being included by LA. I’d be willing to eat his salary if we could swap him for some minor-league prospects, especially pitchers. We have to keep Kemp and Ethier in the starting lineup. They are too good to have warming the bench. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/57 "2009-01-07T21:24:17Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > So he must of caused a lot of chaos when he was an Indian. Apparently not, but that was a long time ago. Being Pedro Martinez’ teammate later helped his prima donnaism blossom. > [@](#): > > That sounds like you taking a rumor for fact A. Facts aren’t going to be come available anyway, so we might as well. B. Rumors are more fun anyway. 😃 > [@](#): > > If Manny’s teammates didn’t like him do you think they tried less? No, but they had to have been distracted, or at least off their feed a bit more than they needed to be. > [@](#): > > From all appearances Kent and Bonds hated each other. There was massive friction on the 1986 Mets. Did it make those teams play worse? I think so, yes. > [@](#): > > That might have something to do with the fact that guaranteeing a guy 20 million dollars a year in his mid 30’s is a pretty big risk. It wasn’t like they were getting him for free there. And now he’s even older, and carrying more baggage, and wanting even more money. > [@](#): > > I don’t actually believe he struck, but that isn’t really anything I’m in position to know. A. The knee injury he claimed in Toronto didn’t show up in any tests. The team packed him off to the MRI room to call his bluff - got the results before the game was even over. B. Three straight called strikes off Rivera in a clutch situation when he next came up. Bat never twitched. C. History of flaking. Source? [/QUOTE] The usual “sources”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/58 "2009-01-09T03:25:55Z")
The Sox were already going into spring training with Lowell and Ortiz being medical questions. So who have they added in free agency? Brad Penny, John Smoltz, and Rocco Baldelli. Their \*total \*game appearances last year were, well, I don’t even care. Hey, Theo, we already had a loaded disabled list last year. How about you go find somebody who can actually _take the field_ for us, huh, can ya? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/59 "2009-01-09T03:29:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Sox were already going into spring training with Lowell and Ortiz being medical questions. So who have they added in free agency? Brad Penny, John Smoltz, and Rocco Baldelli. Their \*total \*game appearances last year were, well, I don’t even care. > > Hey, Theo, we already had a loaded disabled list last year. How about you go find somebody who can actually _take the field_ for us, huh, can ya? ☹ I’m surprised he didn’t go for Pavano from what you just posted. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/60 "2009-01-09T18:14:06Z")
So with Trevor Hoffman off the market, the Dodgers are now apparently committed to using Jonathan Broxton as the closer for this year. This makes me seriously nervous. So far, Broxton hasn’t demonstrated that he has a closer’s mentality, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t last in that role once again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733.md?page=4)