# MLB offseason thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 3, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733 "2009-01-03T20:16:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/141 "2009-02-06T16:53:32Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Forget it, **Munch,** it’s Beantown. > > Look, the Red Sox fans have an awkward situation here. Their management ultimately decided that they really didn’t much want Manny around forever, and Manny’s agent decided that Manny shouldn’t be there because Manny’s agent wanted extra money, and so everyone acted like a bunch of assholes for a while. > > Now, the Red Sox fan has to deal with the fact that for no particularly good reason, the best right-handed hitter in a generation, a guy who gave them six and a half years of production in left field that literally every other team other than San Francisco would have killed for in the same period, a guy who was an absolutely essential and beloved contributor to _two_ World Championships for a team that was starved for one, is gone, and is never coming back. They’ll have to live with Jason Bay now, and Jason Bay is a good player but he will probably not produce like Manny Ramirez did. Their team is quite good, but no one really knows how well this lineup is going to produce now that Youkilis starts his first full season as the #1 guy in the offense. > > So the fans are embracing this irrational stance: _he wasn’t really that good his antics killed our chemistry never mind that our chemistry won us two World Series in four years he was still hurting us without him we would have won five World Series in four years and fuck Manny he sometimes didn’t run out a routine pop fly and took an extra day or two off during the year and that totally outweighs the fact that he was a better hitter than any left fielder the Yankees or Rays ever could have hoped to put out there he ruins chemistry I swear you can see it in all the losing his teams have historically done fuck Manny he wasn’t that pretty anyway and I bet he gets the syph._ > > Because if they don’t buy into that, then it’s just: we had the best right-handed hitter in a generation, and now we don’t. And that kind of sucks, as a fan. I really agree with this summary. It is not scientific but it really looked like the Boston fans often turn and turn hard on their big players that leave. They develop a hate once gone. Boggs, Mo Vaughn, Clemens and now Manny. Obviously it is not all of the fans, it probably is not even the majority, but it is a large and vocal number support by the Boston Sports writers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/142 "2009-02-06T17:25:39Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > they understand that betting on 37 year old to be as good as they were in their prime is a poor bet? Hello? The argument for getting him is based on what he did in LA just 5months ago! Did he turn into a pumpkin on New Year’s Eve or something? > [@](#): > > Despite all this the Dodgers have offered him 1 year for 25 million or 2 years for 45 million. They withdrew the second offer, and the dollar value on the first is only a rumor. > [@](#): > > Those are pretty huge offers for a guy who no one wants. It isn’t necessarily about the dollars, for a big market team. They have the money. It isn’t even all about winning, either - if he hypes up TV ratings and ticket sales, then it’s a good investment. And consider too that Manny isn’t about the money either; nor for that matter are all that many players - it’s about getting “respect”, and money is just the standard by which they measure respect. A minor-league deal at minimum wage might be enough to outbid every other team, to use an extreme, but it would guarantee NOT getting him, ya know? So would a seven-figure deal, to get more realistic. Etc. **Story** , the dollars in your analogy are wildly inappropriate - the Dodger offer, if it is real, is for less than Teixeira, whom nobody here is suggesting is a superior batter, and it would only be a commitment for 1 year. Now try again, please ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/143 "2009-02-06T17:33:38Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Their management ultimately decided that they really didn’t much want Manny around forever, and Manny’s agent decided that Manny shouldn’t be there because Manny’s agent wanted extra money, and so everyone acted like a bunch of assholes for a while. In what way did the team management act like assholes? Was it when they put him on irrevocable waivers a few years ago after a similar round of childishness on his part? No one took him, _for free_, as you’ll recall. > [@](#): > > Now, the Red Sox fan has to deal with the fact that for no particularly good reason You got that right > [@](#): > > the best right-handed hitter in a generation when he felt like it > [@](#): > > a guy who was an absolutely essential and beloved contributor to _two_ World Championships Cite for “beloved”? > [@](#): > > They’ll have to live with Jason Bay now, and Jason Bay is a good player but he will probably not produce like Manny Ramirez did. They were just one good inning from another pennant with Bay, and with a whole lot of their lineup on the DL. Without the deal, they’d have had to suspend Manny anyway. > [@](#): > > Their team is quite good, but no one really knows how well this lineup is going to produce now that Youkilis starts his first full season as the #1 guy in the offense. We’ll know soon how well Lowell and Ortiz have recovered, we know Bay is steady (and hit pretty well here, don’t forget), and if Ellsbury has learned to make adjustments. (BTW the #1 guy in the offense is Pedroia. You might have heard of him, the day the MVP award was announced.) > [@](#): > > So the fans are embracing this irrational stance How is it that every MLB team is run by people who are so much less knowledgeable about the game than the average fantasy-league geek? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/144 "2009-02-06T17:35:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Hello? The argument for getting him is based on what he did in LA just 5months ago! Did he turn into a pumpkin on New Year’s Eve or something? You don’t pay players based on past performance. You pay players based on expected future performance. Age is a major factor in expected future performance. > [@](#): > > They withdrew the second offer, and the dollar value on the first is only a rumor. All contract offers are rumors until one is signed. If Manny signs for 45 million for 2years tomorrow will you say you were wrong? > [@](#): > > It isn’t necessarily about the dollars, for a big market team. They have the money. It isn’t even all about winning, either - if he hypes up TV ratings and ticket sales, then it’s a good investment. And consider too that Manny isn’t about the money either; nor for that matter are all that many players - it’s about getting “respect”, and money is just the standard by which they measure respect. A minor-league deal at minimum wage might be enough to outbid every other team, to use an extreme, but it would guarantee NOT getting him, ya know? So would a seven-figure deal, to get more realistic. Etc. There is one thing and one thing only that consistently brings in revenue. Winning. This holds true for the Marlins and Yankees. Manny helps revenue, because he helps the Dodgers win. > [@](#): > > **Story** , the dollars in your analogy are wildly inappropriate - the Dodger offer, if it is real, is for less than Teixeira, whom nobody here is suggesting is a superior batter, and it would only be a commitment for 1 year. Now try again, please Yeah, Story why aren’t you taking the month old Lobster with no sides or drink. Someone said it tasted good yesterday, so it must taste equally good today. The fresh steak with potato and a coke is a much worse deal. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/145 "2009-02-06T17:39:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If he’s the transcendent player you seem to think he is, he is not too old and that is not too much money. But the very idea is, as I said, laughable to almost every team. What do you understand that the people who do this for a living do not? Please show me where I suggested he was “a transcendent player”. Otherwise, retract the statement. Regardless, why are the Dodgers crawling on their belly trying to get him to sign? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/146 "2009-02-06T17:41:24Z")
So this guy who could hit the cover off the ball at age 36 is at a high risk to be broken down at 37. Got it. Come on, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/147 "2009-02-06T17:42:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In what way did the team management act like assholes? Was it when they put him on irrevocable waivers a few years ago after a similar round of childishness on his part? No one took him, _for free_, as you’ll recall. If by free you mean 20 million a year. Kind of important no? The management could have quietly traded him, and stated that they respected what Manny did for the organization but it was time to move on. They didn’t do that. They didn’t do it with Nomar or Pedro either. Amazing how much came out on those players right after the Red Sox were done with them. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/148 "2009-02-06T17:43:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So this guy who could hit the cover off the ball at age 36 is at a high risk to be broken down at 37. Got it. > > Come on, dude. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/149 "2009-02-06T17:43:35Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Please show me where I suggested he was “a transcendent player”. Otherwise, retract the statement. You didn’t use that word, true. But it does summarize the views you have expressed of him, does it not? > [@](#): > > Regardless, why are the Dodgers crawling on their belly trying to get him to sign? A retraction, a new offer with lesser terms on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, with no competition, is “crawling on their belly”? :dubious: What the hell is the matter with you people? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/150 "2009-02-06T17:43:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So this guy who could hit the cover off the ball at age 36 is at a high risk to be broken down at 37. Got it. > > Come on, dude. Incorrect, again. The issue is not how good a player Manny will be on April 6, 2009. Because he’ll be really, really good. The argument is how Manny will be in September of 2010 or 2011\*. \*_Spoiler alert: He won’t be as good anymore._ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/151 "2009-02-06T17:48:23Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Amazing how much came out on those players right after the Red Sox were done with them. One of the things that makes Terry Francona such a great manager has always been his ability to keep what happens in the clubhouse in the clubhouse. The job is mostly psychology, and he’s a master. But he has gotten ulcers doing it. As for picking him up, what’s the difference between a waiver pickup and a free-agent signing? Nothing but the minimum-wage part. Still, _nobody wanted him_. _Now_, do you want to explain in what way you think the team management was “acting like assholes”? Or do you wish to reconsider your view? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/152 "2009-02-06T17:48:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You didn’t use that word, true. But it does summarize the views you have expressed of him, does it not? It does not. I just did a search on my username and the word “Manny”. 5 threads, three of which were in 2004, one of which was a “create a fantasy team from today’s free agents”, and this one. Going through this thread, the first time I mentioned Manny was that he should take a pay cut, sign with the Rockies, and let the thin mountain air help his argument for next year. So I honestly have absolutely no idea where you came up with the idea that I think Manny is the bee’s knees. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/153 "2009-02-06T17:49:45Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Incorrect, again. The issue is not how good a player Manny will be on April 6, 2009. Because he’ll be really, really good. The argument is how Manny will be in September of 2010 or 2011\*. Did you miss the part about his \*only \*offer being for _one year_? One? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/154 "2009-02-06T17:51:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you miss the part about his \*only \*offer being for _one year_? One? > > Please. Did you miss the part about Manny expressing an interest in only multi-year contracts? More than one? Please. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/155 "2009-02-06T17:54:10Z")
Gawdamighty. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/156 "2009-02-06T17:58:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Gawdamighty. :rolleyes: Still waiting on you showing me where I expressed ANY sort of opinion on what sort of player Manny is. Because I just can’t wait to get back into arguing with your wonderfully rational points. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/157 "2009-02-06T18:13:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In what way did the team management act like assholes? Was it when they put him on irrevocable waivers a few years ago after a similar round of childishness on his part? No one took him, _for free_, as you’ll recall. First of all, you have a different definition of “for free” than most people. A team taking Manny Ramirez off waivers from Boston would have been responsible for, if I am remembering the numbers correctly, something resembling five years and $100M. That is a _huge_ amount of money. That is not “for free.” Very few teams - very few - have committed more than $20M a year to any single player. No one here is arguing that every major league team can affor d Manny Ramirez at his current asking price. In fact, I think he (well, Boras) has hugely overplayed a bad hand here. > [@](#): > > Cite for “beloved”? Seriously? You are seriously going to argue that the average Red Sox fan, on, say, election day 2004, wasn’t deliriously happy that goofy Manny was on his team? > [@](#): > > They were just one good inning from another pennant with Bay, and with a whole lot of their lineup on the DL. Without the deal, they’d have had to suspend Manny anyway. Eh, so suspend him for a week. Or, better still, offer him a contract extension, or promise to pick up his options for '09 and '10 before the '08 season started, or don’t go through such gymnastics trying to make sure that every single bad thing he does gets attention all around the area. The Sox wanted him gone, and they did what they could to push him out, knowing that if they pissed him off a little he’d write his own death warrant in response. If you think Jason Bay is as good a hitter as Manny Ramirez, you’re insane. > [@](#): > > We’ll know soon how well Lowell and Ortiz have recovered, we know Bay is steady (and hit pretty well here, don’t forget), and if Ellsbury has learned to make adjustments. (BTW the #1 guy in the offense is Pedroia. You might have heard of him, the day the MVP award was announced.) Kevin Youkilis is a much better offensive player than Dustin Pedroia (Pedroia adds value with his defense, of course, but that’s not what I said). The #1 guy in your offense is the big scary fucker with the dopey facial hair and the 143 OPS+. The MVP is stupid. They gave it to Justin Morneau in a year when there was a better player on his own _team_. Pedroia is a nice player, but Youkilis is more valuable offensively and it’s not really that close. > [@](#): > > How is it that every MLB team is run by people who are so much less knowledgeable about the game than the average fantasy-league geek? This is such a nonsequitor. What are you talking about? I guarantee you that every major league general manager would tell you what we’re telling you: that Manny is one of the best hitters in baseball _right now, today_. All of us have conceded that he is unlikely to remain so for another three years, which is why his current demands are unrealistic. Nonetheless, the Dodgers will sign him, for a lot of money. A lot of money. If they don’t, the Giants will. I know it would please you to see him forced to accept a 1-year, $10M offer, but that’s not going to happen. The Dodgers and Manny are both grandstanding right now. They’re _negotiating._ I predict, ultimately, that they’ll settle somewhere in the 3-year, $55M range, which will please no one at all, and the Dodgers will go the playoffs and the Red Sox? Maybe not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/158 "2009-02-07T09:02:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So this guy who could hit the cover off the ball at age 36 is at a high risk to be broken down at 37. Got it. It is a risk. It’s not exactly unusual for a 37 year old to break down. And it sure doesn’t seem like Manny is a fitness freak. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/159 "2009-02-07T15:29:06Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > It is a risk. It’s not exactly unusual for a 37 year old to break down. And it sure doesn’t seem like Manny is a fitness freak. By reports of people who cover sports and don’t really like Manny, they do say he works very hard at what he does. He does not come into camp out of shape and he spends as much time or more in the batting cages as anyone else on the team. I’ve heard this from players and sports announcers like Michael Kay of the YES network. Manny has many faults and lives in his own odd world but he appears to be dedicated to his ability to hit at least. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733/160 "2009-02-11T23:44:38Z")
Adam Dunn to the Nationals for two years and $20 million total. Bobby Abreu to Angels for 1 year and $5m + up to $3m in incentives. I think both teams did good on these deals. Especially the Angels. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-offseason-thread/479733.md?page=9)