MLB Poll: Let's remove 5 players from the Hall of Fame

In My Humble Opinion
41

But on the other hand, if you plunked Ty Cobb into 2004 and asked him to play modern baseball, he’d probably adapt his game and start hitting 25+ homers a year. Whatever his faults, Cobb was not stupid. That’s why it’s pointless to worry too much about the time line.

As to the Hack Wilson issue, he wasn’t a very good Hall of Fame choice. He had some great years, but they weren’t SUPER great. His 1930 season, in context, isn’t any more impressive than John Olerud’s 1993 season, or Jeff Kent in 2000, or at least a few Roberto Alomar seasons, or Will Clark’s 1989. Overall he wasn’t any better a player than Dolph Camilli, who had the same number of win shares and, in context, pretty much the same batting numbers. Wilson certainly doesn’t deserve to be one of the first five guys kicked out, but he wasn’t really a GREAT player.

42

Yeah, Hack Wilson would definitely be on my ‘out’ list, too. A very good player for a while but I’d like to see a high standard for admission.

Ross Youngs would be another borderline case for me. Good hitter (.322 AVG) but a very short career and not a lot of great counting stats.

What about Drysdale? A good pitcher but was he great? Sure, his ERA looks good but he was pitching in the era of the pitcher. And he only won 209 games. He was very good…but was he great?

43

We could kick that thief Eagleton out of the HHOF again just for good measure, if you like.

(For the uninformed Alan Eagleton (sp) was elected to the HHOF based on his contributions as a league organizer, player agent and player union agent. He was kicked out when it was learned he stole money from the players’ pension funds.)

44

I was just about to put Drysdale on my list. He was famous, because he pitched in LA, but I don’t think he was great. Others I’d boot would be Maranville, Hafey, and Rizzuto and I’d seriously consider defrocking former saint Kirby Puckett. I think I’d let Kirby stay based on baseball considerations, but I’d seriously consider it. Since I’ve got one boot left, I’d close up shop on the Veterans Committee itself.

As to who I’d let it, he wasn’t a player but I think Marvin Miller has got to go in. For players I’d put in Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and Jim Kaat.

45

I utterly agree on Miller. He arguably had the second most influence on the modern game after Judge Landis.

I flip back and forth on Morris and Kaat but I’m with you on Blyleven. There are many pitchers in the hall less deserving than Blyleven.

And the new way the Veteran’s Committee does it is, I think, far superior. The only get to vote every two years and the electorate is all living members of the Hall of Fame. So you have to convince the guys already in that you deserve to join their number.

46

I’ve been back and forth about Drysdale.

Let me put it this way; should Juan Marichal be in the Hall of Fame? I’m guessing most people would say “Hell, yeah.”

So show me Marichal was a better pitcher than Drysdale. No, really. Look at the numbers.

Marichal started 457 games, pitching 3507 innings with an ERA 22 percent better than league (adjusted for park.)

Drysdale started 465 games, pitched 3432 innings with an ERA 21 percent better than league.

The difference between them in actual pitching skill was negligible; Drysdale probably made up for it with his bat. The only significant difference in pitching numbers between them is W-L. Their defense-independent numbers are remarkably similar. By any measurement EXCEPT W-L they were the same pitcher. By Win Shares they are almost dead even: Marichal 263, Drysdale 258.

Now, I don’t have support numbers for the pitchers individually… but it seems pretty clear to me that the reason for the disparity in W-L is offensive support. The two pitchers were regular starters in the NL at the same time for nine years, 1961-1969. Here are the runs scored by their teams:

1961: Giants 773, Dodgers 735
1962: Giants 878, Dodgers 842
1963: Giants 725, Dodgers 640
1964: Giants 656, Dodgers 614
1965: Giants 682, Dodgers 608
1966: Giants 675, Dodgers 606
1967: Giants 652, Dodgers 519
1968: Giants 599, Dodgers 470
1969: Giants 713, Dodgers 645

The Giants outscored the Dodgers EVERY YEAR that Drysdale and Marichal simultaneously pitched regularly. Granting that Dodger Stadium is a pitcher’s park and Candlestick was more or less neutral, that doesn’t account for the difference here. After Drysdale retired, Marichal continued to pitch and be supported by excellent offenses. He was supported by the best offense in baseball in 1970, the NL’s #3 offense in 1971, #5 in 1972, #3 in 1973.

I actually think Drysdale wasn’t a bad choice, although I used to think otherwise. I don’t at all understand why you would pick Jack Morris to replace Drysdale; Morris had a slightly longer career but wasn’t nearly as effective.

47

I think Morris was the best AL pitcher throughout the 1980s and was the anchor of two different World Series champions.

Drysdale wasn’t. Koufax and Gibson were better than him, and Koufax was the achor of the Dodgers World Series winners.

48

Jack Morris career ERA+: 105
High ERA+: 127
Low ERA+: 78
Seasons Over ERA+ 100: 11
Seasons Under ERA+ 100: 6

Don Drysdale career ERA+: 121
High ERA+: 154
Low ERA+: 75
Seasons Over ERA+ 100: 11
Seasons Under ERA+ 100: 3

Drysdale’s numbers destroy Jack Morris’s. He had 6 seasons that were better than Morris’s best season.

49

Roger Bresnahan Career BA .279, 26 career HR. One of the very early players, he was an innovator in catching equipment. However, those career batting stats are lowly.

Bill Mazerowski NEVER hit .300. Best year .283, most HR in one season 19. Great defensive player, but too weak offensively for me.

Juan Marichal 243-142. Only six great years. Stats got him in, but that ugly Roseboro incident is what I’ll always think of when his name comes up.

Phil Niekro sure he got 318 wins, but he hung around forever to get it. He never was the dominant pitcher of his time.

Don Sutton- same as Niekro. Hanging around forever to get 300 wins shouldn’t be a lock to get you in. For some prolonged period, you should be THE dominant player at your position. Neither Sutton nor Niekro were.

50

I can’t believe I made it through 48 posts and no one had said Mazeroski (no ‘w’).

And, then BLAMMO!

He’s in because of one hit.

51

Sorry to misspell Mazeroski’s name. That was always my feeling- that he got in for THE home run. If Roger Maris is excluded because everyone says he only had one stellar year, then how did Maz get in for one stellar at bat?

52

You guys are both wrong. If anything, Mazeroski was kept out of the Hall of Fame way too long.

First of all, his hitting was perfectly respectable (career .260), especially considering the fact that all of his home games were played in one of the deepest parks ever built. Forbes Field was so damn deep that the batting practice backstop would just be wheeled out and stored against the outfield wall.

Next, he didn’t get in on one hit, and he wasn’t merely a great defensive player. He was considered by some the greatest fielder ever to play the game. Opposing players would watch him during fielding practice the way they watch Sosa and Bonds today at batting practice.

He continues to hold the MLB double play record, for a second baseman, at 1,706.

He led the league in assists 9 times, and in double plays 8 times. He has 8 Golden Gloves.

Your opinion, say what you will. But Mazeroski stays in the Hall of Fame in any sane world.

53

I dunno, man. A lifetime OBP of .299? By that reasoning Rey Ordonez belongs in the HoF.

Career Batting: .260/.299/.367
League Batting: .263/.327/.398

So he wasn’t respectable. He was below average for all players. His SB% was 54%…that’s a detriment, too. Break even there tends to be about 2/3.

Fielding was better, I admit.

FPct: .983
LgFPct: .976

RFct: 5.57
LgRfct: 4.71

Good numbers. Toss in 7 All Star Games and 8 Gold Gloves and just 1 Top Ten MVP voting appearance and I still think it adds up to a good but not great player.

And if HE’S in…

FREE THE SANDBERG ONE!!!

Career Batting: .285/.344/.452
League Batting: .269/.337/.404

FPct: .989
LgFPct: .981

RFct: 5.10
LgRFct: 4.47

All Star Games: 10
Gold Gloves: 9
MVP: 1
Top Ten MVP: 4

54

Nobody here has taken issue with my nomination of Tony Perez, and as much as I’d like to assume that my sheer sabermetric brilliance has simply cowed you all into submission, I think it’s probably 'cause no one read it. :slight_smile:

So, to summarize: I do not believe Tony Perez deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

His top five most similar players are Harold Baines, Dave Parker, Andre Dawson, Rusty Staub, and Dwight Evans. Good players all, but aside from maybe Dawson none of them deserve to be enshrined.

Perez only placed in the top ten in OPS three times in his career. He was never truly dominant, just consistently good for a long period of time. Yes, the RBI totals are impressive, but on some of those Cincinatti teams it would be hard not to drive in a hundred batting third or fourth.

Plus, he played first base, where posting a career 122 OPS+ makes you definitely an above-average player, probably an all-star, but not Hall-worthy.

55

MY sabermetric computer-like mind was simply viewing that as one of those obvious things that didn’t need concurrence.

56

I heard about Maranville years ago, and I have to agree that he doesn’t belong. I’m less of a stat-head when it comes to baseball sometimes- can someone give me an average fielding percentage for a shortshop? Maranville’s career percentage was .956. I’m browsing totals for other HOF shortstops, and that seems average at best. It’s well behind Ozzie Smith (.978), and Ozzie had a slightly better batting average.

Bill James apparently rated him as one of the top five shortstops ever, but as always, Bill James can eat my ass. :stuck_out_tongue:

57

Fielding percentages, as with almost all other categories, vary widely by era. Maranville’s career FP as a SS was .952, and the league average for that time period was .940. Ozzie Smith’s .978 came at a time when the league average was .966. So as disparate as the numbers seem, they’re relatively equal when compared to the league average.

58

Well, you also have to look at their range.

For instance, I could have a 1.000 fielding percentage as a major league shorstop right now if I simply bothered to field the one ball per game I could actually handle and didn’t even try to get the others.

So the question is, which would you rather have - a high FPC and low range or high range and low FPC. The really great defensive players like the Wizard and Mazeroski destroyed the rest of the league in both.

59

Hey Jonathan Chance,

I like where you started to go with the stats, but you didn’t get all of the way there. You should be adjusting the hitting stats for era, ballpark, league, and you should probably be comparing him to other 2B.

Rey Ordonez played in the comparatively hit-happy nineties. Maz played in the pre-expansion, higher pitching mound era. Furthermore, there are approximately 5 players (maybe 6) on every team (of that era) you’d expect to hit better than your second baseman (LF, RF, CF, 1B, and 3B, maybe C), so the 2B hitting stats are lower than league averages. No, Maz couldn’t swing with the Mays of the era, but then, should HOF be about that? If so, how does any pitcher get in? If so, why didn’t every team put an OF at 2B? Maz was a great 2B of his era.

I don’t have good references for the stats (nor am I Bill James), so I can’t do all of the adjustments, etc. But, here are some snippets from 1960 National League:

Pittsburgh_____Bill Mazeroski_____.273/.320/.392____11
Milwaukee_____Chuck Cottier_____.227/.273/.301_____3
St. Louis_______Julian Javier______.237/.273/.341_____4
Los Angeles____Charlie Neal______.256/.321/.363_____8
San Francisco___Don Blasingame___.235/.302/.300_____2
Cincinnati______Billy Martin________.246/.304/.334____3
Chicago_______Jerry Kindall_______.240/.253/.346_____2
Philadelphia____Tony Taylor_______.284/.331/.377_____5

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_1960.shtml

These players played the majority of their teams games at second base in 1960. I showed BA, OBP, SLG and HR. I know that Tony Taylor (at least) split time between two teams (here CHC and PHI) and I listed his composite stats. Because these stats are all from the 1960 NL and they are all the majority 2B, I feel they are close to adjusted for era, league, and position. The only thing not there is the ballpark factor, and as mentioned Forbes was huge. Maz looks like a pretty good hitter on that stat sheet!

Every NL team would’ve traded straight up for him immediately. His hitting is that much better than what they had and he really was referred to as the best defensive 2B ever. He turned 162 double plays in one season! Disclaimer: Maz only turned 127 in 1960, the year given above.

As an aside, I dislike hearing about Gold Gloves. They are voted on by people who care about star power which mostly means hitting not defense. I can get behind Sandberg for the HOF to a great extent, but he didn’t really deserve those Gold Gloves. He got the votes because he was the most feared hitting 2B of his day. Check out Palmeiro’s Gold Glove a few years back. The one he got when he played 39 games at first…

60

I wasn’t advancing any particular argument about which shortstop was better. I was answering Marley’s question about average fielding percentage:

Zelski, I don’t think anybody’s saying that Mazeroski was a bad hitter or a bad player. Even the numbers you produced indicate that he was just a little better than most second basemen of his era at the plate. So, great in the field, better than average for his position at the plate. Still not, in my opinion, good enough for the Hall of Fame.