# MLB: Postseason 2015 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 30, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030 "2015-09-30T13:04:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/281 "2015-10-12T15:40:44Z")
> [@Club\_33](#): > > But Utley’s intention wasn’t to injure anyone, it was to break up a double play. The issue is that he _only_ was trying to break up the double play, not to get to the base himself. In looking back over the thread, I note that your own initial reaction to the play was different: > [@Club\_33](#): > > I’m a huge Dodger fan but **it was an ugly play and I think Utley was way over the top with that slide.** One thing is certain - we are getting ready to play in a stadium full of **very pissed off fans (and rightfully so)**. Bolding mine. Now everything is just fine with Utley’s behavior? > [@Club\_33](#): > > Actually, it was a bonehead play by Tejada who, by trying to be a hero, disregarded everything he was taught and turned his back on a incoming runner while trying to make a play that was clearly impossible to make, rather than look out for his own safety. I note a contradiction here. If the “play was impossible to make,” then Utley wasn’t trying to break up a double play. You can’t have it both ways. If the double play was possible, then Tejada should have tried to make it. If it was impossible, then Utley didn’t need to try to prevent it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/282 "2015-10-12T15:44:21Z")
1. Utley was a bad boy. 2. Sucks to be Tejada. 3. Anybody who ceases to root for the Dodgers because of this play isn’t a fan. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/283 "2015-10-12T15:50:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I note a contradiction here. If the “play was impossible to make,” then Utley wasn’t trying to break up a double play. You can’t have it both ways. If the double play was possible, then Tejada should have tried to make it. If it was impossible, then Utley didn’t need to try to prevent it. Utley who was obviously not looking towards first probably had little idea whether it was possible or not to complete the DP. Tejada was facing towards first and, at least, had a much better idea if the play was possible or not. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/284 "2015-10-12T16:02:57Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > This is my favorite argument, any time it comes up in any context: “Expert X totally agrees with me, even though (s)he _explicitly and publicly stated that (s)he disagrees_. (S)he’s just intimidated by the media - (a well-known characteristic of _Joe Fucking Torre_, by the way). That’s much more likely than that Joe Torre just doesn’t agree with me.” Or… Perhaps I’m just suggesting that there _might_ be an ulterior motive behind his words. Consider the fact that Chris Coghlan wasn’t suspended for his actions against the Pirates, even though the circumstances were quite similar. Can you explain why there were entirely different results regarding almost identical plays? When I see that, I consider the possibility that there might be underlying reasons for the disciplinary inconsistency that has Pirates fans livid at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/285 "2015-10-12T16:25:44Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No shit. I’m saying, that’s what sliding was invented for. Not for getting to the bag faster, because you don’t. That’s why players generally don’t slide into first. Not exactly. You shouldn’t slide into first because you can overrun the base without possibility of being tagged out. The same is not true at 2nd or 3rd, so you get there faster by sliding. Breaking up a double play has always been accepted, yes. And it will continue to be accepted. But it has always been interference to slide into the pivot man 3 feet away from the bag while making no attempt to touch the base. If you do that, you have to at least reach your hand out to touch the base. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/286 "2015-10-12T16:47:35Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > you get there faster by sliding. This is way tangential to the present thread, so I’ll leave it alone. > [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Breaking up a double play has always been accepted, yes. And it will continue to be accepted. But it has always been interference to slide into the pivot man 3 feet away from the bag while making no attempt to touch the base. If you do that, you have to at least reach your hand out to touch the base. No, not “always.” Not unchangingly. Utley made more of a gesture at touching the bag than Holliday did, but only Utley was suspended. There is no question but that [this represents a different posture by MLB](http://m.mlb.com/news/article/154105966/utley-suspension-shows-mlbs-shift-in-approach), reacting somewhat to fan sensibilities, and to the fact that Tejada happened to get hurt worse than Scutaro did. (I could point to others than Holliday/Scutaro, that’s just an easy similar example that I already mentioned. From Torre’s first year overseeing field rules and discipline, IIRC.) ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/287 "2015-10-12T16:51:02Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > In looking back over the thread, I note that your own initial reaction to the play was different: > > Bolding mine. Now everything is just fine with Utley’s behavior? A fair point. Like you say, my initial reaction to the play was that is was overly aggressive. After giving it more thought, I still think it was aggressive, but I don’t think it was over the top. I think he did exactly what his employers expected of him in that situation. I don’t think his intention was ever to hurt someone and I think the result might have been different had Tejada done anything to protect himself from what he had to know was going to be an aggressive slide. I also have to consider the fact that the Mets on the field don’t appear to be all that upset with the aggressiveness of the play at the time. I didn’t so much as see one player bark at him. Their anger, of course, increased once they lost the game. I find that interesting. > [@](#): > > I note a contradiction here. If the “play was impossible to make,” then Utley wasn’t trying to break up a double play. You can’t have it both ways. If the double play was possible, then Tejada should have tried to make it. If it was impossible, then Utley didn’t need to try to prevent it. I don’t see the contradiction. From Tejada’s vantage point (before he turned his back on the runner), he should have realized that he wasn’t going to make that play (everyone else looking on seemed to realize this) and that it was prudent to get the hell out of the way. Utley, on the other hand, doesn’t have that same information available to him. He has his back to first and is running full steam. He has no idea what is going on behind him and has no way to determine what is or isn’t impossible. He can’t stop, look around, and make a decision. He has to go with his instincts and the training ingrained into him. So, he did what any manager would have expected from him (even Joe Torre), and someone unfortunately got hurt as a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/288 "2015-10-12T17:17:12Z")
> [@Club\_33](#): > > From Tejada’s vantage point (before he turned his back on the runner), he should have realized that he wasn’t going to make that play (everyone else looking on seemed to realize this) and that it was prudent to get the hell out of the way. On re-viewing the video, Tejada turned to receive the ball from the second baseman when the runner was maybe one quarter the way to first base. I don’t see anything to suggest that a double play was impossible at that point. (And if others thought it was impossible, it was because they had a better view than Tejada.) By the time Tejada pivoted, he had a fraction of a second to assess the situation before Utley plowed into him. And he _was_ out of the way. He had moved a good two feet off the bag immediately after (he thought) touching it, presumably to avoid Utley running into him. If Utley had gone straight for the bag, instead of tracking straight for Tejada as he moved away from the bag, the collision wouldn’t have happened. But a collision (or at least the threat of a collision) was Utley’s objective. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/289 "2015-10-12T18:10:33Z")
All other issues aside, I think the 2 game suspension of Utley is a good call. Hopefully tonight we can see a baseball game instead of a hockey fight. I think it will do good to calm the Mets down. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/290 "2015-10-12T18:13:33Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > All other issues aside, I think the 2 game suspension of Utley is a good call. > > Hopefully tonight we can see a baseball game instead of a hockey fight. I think it will do good to calm the Mets down. Yeah, I really don’t want to see a festival of headhunting. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/291 "2015-10-12T18:25:57Z")
It would take uncommon restraint all around not to see some ripples. Given that MLB has issued a suspension, affirming “this is a big deal,” that’s a lot to ask. I can’t help thinking… assuming Utley is in uniform for the game, what’s the best tactical use of him? Bring him on as a PH sometime after the warning? I already disliked him, disliked the Dodgers organization, but Mattingly has been given an evilly interesting kind of psychological weapon here. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/292 "2015-10-12T18:31:24Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Bring him on as a PH sometime after the warning? If it weren’t a playoff game, he’d be assured of reaching base every time on a HBP. 😉 But I assume there’s too much at stake for the Mets to indulge in revenge by giving the Dodgers a better chance at winning. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/293 "2015-10-12T18:45:35Z")
Right, but are they so resolute that they couldn’t be provoked into losing their cool, making mistakes? Imagine Utley coming in to hit. Home fans are screaming. Maybe a warning has already been given, maybe the Mets are just being careful. They pitch him outside and he draws a walk. Mets fans are howling with rage, now at their own team as well as Utley. He moves on and off the bag, the Mets throw over repeatedly… ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/294 "2015-10-12T18:51:55Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Hopefully tonight we can see a baseball game instead of a hockey fight. I think it will do good to calm the Mets down. Utley’s appeal [will unlikely be heard today](http://espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2015/story/_/id/13869740/chase-utley-losangeles-dodgers-unlikely-appeal-heard-making-eligible-game-3), making him available for tonight’s game. Hard to imagine that MLB has more pressing matters, but I am sure tonight’s ratings will be high. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/295 "2015-10-12T18:58:53Z")
Anyone know what the record is for batter’s walks in a five-game series? Colby Rasmus has to be getting close. And wow, has Evan Gattis ever been having a terrible postseason so far. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/296 "2015-10-12T19:12:16Z")
Evan Gattis is moneyball’s nightmare. Strikes out a ton and does not get on base. Rasmus, meanwhile, also strikes out a ton but at least has a respectable OBP. Ventura only goes 5 for the Royals today and they trail in the 6th. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/297 "2015-10-12T19:22:46Z")
Answering my own question, the record is 8 in 4 games by who you would expect (his initials are BB). Rasmus has 6 now, so hopefully he won’t have a chance to break it. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/298 "2015-10-12T20:26:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > If Utley had gone straight for the bag, instead of tracking straight for Tejada as he moved away from the bag, the collision wouldn’t have happened. But a collision (or at least the threat of a collision) was Utley’s objective. Utley didn’t go straight for the bag because that would be a very ineffective way of breaking up a double play, which is precisely what his objective was (and that of his team). Breaking up a double play is a legal, established and accepted part of the game. Could he have been more gentle about it? Perhaps. Are players generally regarded for their gentle demeanor during a potentially game changing event in an important series? Not so much. They play hard. Every player is aware of it, every player understands it, every good player does it, especially in a critical situation. Sometimes they go overboard in the heat of the moment, but am intent to injure should have to be established before any disciplinary action is handed out, IMO, not just an injury. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/299 "2015-10-12T20:39:19Z")
> [@Club\_33](#): > > Utley didn’t go straight for the bag because that would be a very ineffective way of breaking up a double play, which is precisely what his objective was (and that of his team). Breaking up a double play is a legal, established and accepted part of the game. We _know_ that his objective was to break up a double play. _The issue is that the way he did it was against the rules_ To quote the rule, once again: > [@](#): > > A preceding runner shall, in the umpire’s judgment, intentionally interfere with a fielder who is attempting to catch a thrown ball or to throw a ball in an attempt to complete any play; > > Rule 5.09(a)(13) Comment (Rule 6.05(m) Comment ): The objective of this rule is to penalize the offensive team for deliberate, unwarranted, unsportsmanlike action by the runner in leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play, rather than trying to reach the base. Obviously this is an umpire’s judgment play. You’ve said yourself that Utley’s intention was to break up the double play. He didn’t go for the base, but went for the fielder. He left the baseline to target Tejada. I have no objection if a runner breaks up a double play in the course of trying to reach base. But Utley didn’t do that. He aimed for the fielder _in preference_ to going for the base. That’s against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030/300 "2015-10-12T20:40:18Z")
More food for thought: It is safe to assume that Utley is aware of the similar events that occurred injuring a Pirates player. There was no disciplinary action at all, not so much as a reprimand or disapproving glance by MLB. Therefore, Utley has every reason to believe that his similar actions, if not explicitly approved, were legal - at least they were a couple of weeks ago. Also, if the umpires at the time (who had a great view of everything) thought that Utley had done something illegal, they would have either warned, or more likely, tossed him on the spot. They didn’t see anything to warrant that action. I think Utley is going to win his appeal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-postseason-2015/733030.md?page=16)