# MLB Spring Training 2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405 "2009-02-11T18:51:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/61 "2009-03-05T16:59:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > :rolleyes: > Every team, every one, with the ability to meet the price for Teixeira, and some who didn’t, was in on the bidding. Only one team could have the high bid, though. > > Don’t thread-shit. How do I know other teams made him an offer? I remember you saying the Dodger offers to Ramirez were just rumors until he actually signed a contract, and we shouldn’t take them as real. Besides that is blatantly false. The Mets could have afforded Teixeria, they didn’t want him. So could the Cubs, the Dodgers, and the Giants. You think they didn’t want him because they thought he sucked? Maybe they didn’t want to allocate their resources that way. If Manny was willing to sign for 500k, 30 teams would be lining up to sign him. Yes even the Red Sox, they would find a way to make up. 29 teams didn’t shun Manny, they simply decided they rather us 20 million dollars a year elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/62 "2009-03-05T17:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > As a Boston fan, I’m glad Beane didn’t come here, anyway - his first act was going to be to dump Jason Varitek because of his OBP.😛 Now does anyone seriously think they’d have two Series titles without 'Tek handling and stabilizing the staff? Of course the Red Sox could have won 2 world series without him. He may have evewn cost them a shot at the World Series in '08. Varitek was quantifiably a very good cather up until 2006 or so. > [@](#): > > Handling a pitching staff, in that demanding environment, and providing leadership don’t matter to stat geeks, since they’re not quantifiable, just as defense at other positions, or pitching itself, or especially intangibles, doesn’t matter to them either. Sure, Bill James provides an occasional interesting insight here, but he’s kept in his place - he has to be. Fortunately, the Boston ownership knows _on-the-field_ baseball too, not just fantasy-league silliness. How do you know Varitek is good at handling a pitching staff. Because he looks leaderly? Intangilbles matter, but if you can’t measure them you can’t know what they are. There is no evidence that Varitek is any better or any worse at handling a staff than anyone else. It is pretty much you making stuff up, because it fits your world view. Stat geeks don’t like making stuff up. We want to figure out what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/63 "2009-03-05T17:06:52Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Nick Swisher, Joe Blanton, and Mark Teahan all have been regulars in the majors. It wasn’t the greatest draft ever, but those aren’t busts. They aren’t even consistent All-Stars. At any rate, none of them is somebody you could build a team around. So what’s the value of the process used to decide they were? Youkilis, as **HoboStew** points out, \*did \*make it big, but \*not \*for Moneyball reasons. “The Greek God of Walks” made himself one of the best \*hitters \*in the game, not walkers, and with fine fielding at two positions, as well. He’s mostly Romanian Jewish, btw, not Greek. On preview, if you know of any other offers by any other team for Ramirez, even rumors not begun by Boras (it’s one of his fave tactics), let’s hear 'em, m’kay?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/64 "2009-03-05T17:10:51Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > How do you know Varitek is good at handling a pitching staff. By paying attention to what his pitchers say about that, and by watching the actual games too. Fascinating stuff, you ought to try it yourself sometime. > [@](#): > > Intangilbles matter, but if you can’t measure them you can’t know what they are. And right there you have the foolishness of the stat-geek approach, laid bare for all to see. Of course you can know what intangibles are. Don’t be so silly. You can know what tangibles-but-unquantifiables are, too. > [@](#): > > Stat geeks don’t like making stuff up. We want to figure out what actually happened. You need to realize that often, very often, even usually, you can’t do that with stats. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/65 "2009-03-05T17:14:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They aren’t even consistent All-Stars. At any rate, none of them is somebody you could build a team around. So what’s the value of the process used to decide they were? The understand most drafted players don’t become stars right? Three solid regulars is a pretty nice draft class. > [@](#): > > Youkilis, as **HoboStew** points out, \*did \*make it big, but \*not \*for Moneyball reasons. “The Greek God of Walks” made himself one of the best \*hitters \*in the game, not walkers, and with fine fielding at two positions, as well. He’s mostly Romanian Jewish, btw, not Greek. I have no idea what Moneyball reasons means. Oh right, you are just wildly misinterrupting things again. Have you read Moneyball? If not I’d kindly ask you to stop acting like you know what it says. > [@](#): > > On preview, if you know of any other offers by any other team for Ramirez, even rumors not begun by Boras (it’s one of his fave tactics), let’s hear 'em, m’kay?:dubious: No other team was willing to pay him 20 million dollars a year. Given his age and skill set that makes perfect sense. If he was a completely upstanding player, I doubt that anyone else would have given him 20 million either. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/66 "2009-03-05T17:18:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You think Jason Varitek made Curt Schilling and Pedro Martinez good pitchers? Wow, that’s insane. Had you never heard of these guys before they went to Boston? You’re aware they play mjaor league baseball in other cities, yes? > You know absolutely nothing about handling pitching staffs and who is or isn’t full of it. Since you are not a major league catcher, pitcher, and aren’t a part of the Red Sox organization, you’re speaking from a position of **complete** ignorance. Your comments are without any basis in fact and are therefore useless. > Tell me, who is it that believe defense doesn’t matter? Specific names, please. Not “Stat geeks” - specific names. Bill James? Nope, not him; he’s put a lot of effort into understanding the value of defense. So who is it? Please provide examples. > > Frankly, I don’t believe you even like baseball. Have you ever even played catch? God alone knows why you pollute good baseball threads with this sort of ignorant nonsense. The Tigers retooled their infield with a huge stress on defense this year. They were unhappy with the defense all around the infield. They also had catching problems .They gave up bats to get gloves. The pitchers are probably pleased. This year will be a lab experiment of how important defense is to pitchers. If the same pitchers win more and ERAs drop, you will clearly see if defense is over rated or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/67 "2009-03-05T17:21:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > By paying attention to what his pitchers say about that, and by watching the actual games too. Fascinating stuff, you ought to try it yourself sometime. I watch an obsessively large amount of baseball. I’m smart enough however to realize that my eyes can be deceiving. Also playing baseball and analysing baseball are two completely different skill sets. At any rate, let’s say Varitek makes his pitching staffs better. How does he do that. Do you think his pitchers give up less runs? Strike out more? Walk less? Throw more innings? If he improves the staff, there should be some evidence of it. If there isn’t, well it probably doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/68 "2009-03-05T17:23:18Z")
With the distance to the walls in Comerica, the only surprise is that the Tigers didn’t figure out years ago that they had to structure their team that way. **HawkeyeOp** , if you could have listed any significant successes the Beane approach has had, no doubt you would have done so. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/69 "2009-03-05T17:28:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > With the distance to the walls in Comerica, the only surprise is that the Tigers didn’t figure out years ago that they had to structure their team that way. > **HawkeyeOp** , if you could have listed any significant successes the Beane approach has had, no doubt you would have done so. The best ratio of wins per $ spent this decade? Seems pretty good to me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/70 "2009-03-05T17:30:30Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Do you think his pitchers give up less runs? Strike out more? Walk less? Throw more innings? If he improves the staff, there should be some evidence of it. How \*could \*you do that with a statistical approach, even in theory? By comparing pitchers’ performances with somebody else behind the plate, right? That’s the only mathematically-sound approach, and even then it has weaknesses, right? Okay. Well, almost all Boston games not caught by Varitek are Wakefield starts. Almost all Wakefield starts are not with Varitek. So how could you “analyze” the difference except with your own eyes? > [@](#): > > If there isn’t, well it probably doesn’t exist. Oh, okay. That’s it. Pretend it just doesn’t exist. Avoids all that subjective, fan-type stuff. Easy, ain’t it? Yet another example. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/71 "2009-03-05T17:36:21Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > The best ratio of wins per $ spent this decade? Seems pretty good to me. An endless string of finishing a few games above .500 in a weak division. If consistently being a little better than the Rangers and Mariners seems “pretty good” to you, then you’re welcome to it. Tell me, do the A’s have celebration rallies in Jack London Square every year they have the best ratio of wins to payroll? Dan Duquette, the former Red Sox GM, claimed the team was a great success one year when it didn’t make the playoffs because they’d spent “more days in first place” that season than any other team in the division. He was laughed out of town for that (and other reasons), and quite properly, too. But it’s the same argument at heart as what you just gave. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/72 "2009-03-05T18:07:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You do realize, I hope, that the Sox brought Ortiz in after his release in MN because of lobbying by _Pedro Martinez_, and then only as a backup for Jeremy Giambi at 1B. Or, obviously, you didn’t know that. Ortiz had to be heavily coached to hit for power instead of in the Twins’ Astroturf-grounder style, and THEN he became Big Papi. Where the hell did you get the idea that James had anything to do with it? Or could have, for that matter?:dubious: > > Try to be a fan of the \*real \*game, on and off the field, and you’ll have a lot more fun, trust me. You know, people like you make it less fun to argue about sports. First of all, you have this sanctimonious attitude like you know everything and everyone else knows nothing. That would be annoying enough by itself, but you also happen to be totally wrong. Take [this Ortiz thing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_James). > [@](#): > > although James is typically tight-lipped about his activities on behalf of the Red Sox, he is credited with advocating some of the moves that led to the team’s first World Series championship in 86 years, including the signing of non-tendered free agent David Ortiz, the trade for Mark Bellhorn, and the team’s increased emphasis on on-base percentage. During his time with the Red Sox, Bill James has received two World Series rings for the team’s 2004 and 2007 victories. So seriously dude. Ease up, and what’s that rule? Oh yeah, don’t be a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/73 "2009-03-05T18:20:52Z")
As it happens, I do know the Ortiz story better than you, and just demonstrated it too. (The Bellhorn signing is in the same sentence in Wiki? 😃 Wonderful cite there. At least it didn’t mention his role in getting the Sox to sign the stat-miracle Bruce Chen and Rudy Seanez for the bullpen.) The fun of talking sports with others is learning new facts, seeing different viewpoints, and gaining deeper understanding _of the game itself and its players_ from others. Don’t get defensive about it; ease up and participate and you won’t be tempted to call anybody else in the conversation a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/74 "2009-03-05T18:27:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The fun of talking sports with others is learning new facts, seeing different viewpoints, and gaining deeper understanding _of the game itself and its players_ from others. Don’t get defensive about it; ease up and participate and you won’t be tempted to call anybody else in the conversation a jerk. That would be a heck of a lot easier if you weren’t calling those who disagreed with you “thread shitters” ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/75 "2009-03-05T18:30:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As it happens, I do know the Ortiz story better than you, and just demonstrated it too. (The Bellhorn signing is in the same sentence in Wiki? 😃 Wonderful cite there. At least it didn’t mention his role in getting the Sox to sign the stat-miracle Bruce Chen and Rudy Seanez for the bullpen.) Right, except I have a cite and you have… well… you. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/76 "2009-03-05T18:37:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **HawkeyeOp** , if you could have listed any significant successes the Beane approach has had, no doubt you would have done so. I already did. Four playoff appearances in six years, including two division titles and two hundred-win seasons, all with a payroll far below league average. Seriously, you’re just embarrassing yourself here; it’s seems clear that you don’t even know what the “Beane approach” actually is. Next time someone asks if we have anyone famous on the Dope, i’m going to suggest Joe Morgan, and point them at your baseball commentary for evidence. Although you probably think that’s a compliment. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I have no patience with fantasy fans. Anybody who thinks, as you do, that THAT is baseball is, in your word, “insane”. > > Recess is over, kiddies. Go back to your desks now. And again with the misrepresentations and the insults. I have never, ever played in a baseball fantasy league.\* My love of baseball is precisely that: a love of baseball. I watch it on TV, and when time and money permit i watch it at the ground. I read books about it, and not just books by stat geeks. I love the baseball writing of Roger Angell, of George Will, of Stephen Jay Gould, and a host of others. I’m much more excited by a bases-clearing triple or a well-executed double-play or a vicious curve-ball than i am by OBP or WHIP. For me, stats are interesting and fun and a way to enhance my understanding and love of the game, not a replacement for it, as you so absurdly keep asserting. I’m not sure if Bill James cut you off in traffic one time or something, but i just don’t understand why you have to act like such a complete asshole in these baseball threads when people disagree with you, nor why you have to make snide remarks about stat people whenever you can slip them into the conversation. Anyway, i’ve said my piece. I just see no point interacting with you anymore in these discussions. - Full disclosure: i’ve been invited to join one this season, and have accepted, so i’ll have my first experience of fantasy baseball very soon. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/77 "2009-03-05T18:38:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, almost all Boston games not caught by Varitek are Wakefield starts. Almost all Wakefield starts are not with Varitek. So how could you “analyze” the difference except with your own eyes? You don’t think you could be able to find any statistical difference between “Varitek Games” and “Not-Varitek Games”? Really? If you’re claiming Varitek helped them win more, wouldn’t there be a difference in, well, _wins_? And I’m also going to say that you’re starting to come off like a jerk in this thread. Ease up, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/78 "2009-03-05T18:44:06Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > That would be a heck of a lot easier if you weren’t calling those who disagreed with you “thread shitters” That assessment, where I’ve used it, is well-founded. > [@HoboStew](#): > > Right, except I have a cite and you have… well… you. You think I made that up? Seriously? Gawdamighty … [From the very same source you yourself call a “cite” [/quote] :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > After shopping him around during the off season, and finding no takers, the Twins released Ortiz nine days before Christmas in 2002. The Red Sox took a flier on Ortiz, signing him to a minor league contract the following month. Originally, Jeremy Giambi was assigned the primary role as DH/First Baseman, but his poor performance allowed Ortiz to step in. Additionally, the subsequent trade of Shea Hillenbrand to the Arizona Diamondbacks allowed Bill Mueller to play full time at third base, creating more playing time. Got it now? Okay, [[url=www.answers.com/topic/david-ortiz](http://url=www.answers.com/topic/david-ortiz)]here’s the Pedro side, in case that’s what you meant:]([David Ortiz - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ortiz)): > [@](#): > > Fellow Dominican Pedro Martinez of the Boston Red Sox, who had been something of a mentor to Ortiz, lobbied Red Sox management to sign Ortiz. Red Sox management listened. They soon signed Ortiz to a one-year contract. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/79 "2009-03-05T18:48:16Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > That would be a heck of a lot easier if you weren’t calling those who disagreed with you “thread shitters” ::whisper:: Angry Red Sox fan, go figure ::/whisper:: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405/80 "2009-03-05T18:48:22Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > You don’t think you could be able to find any statistical difference between “Varitek Games” and “Not-Varitek Games”? Really? Yes, and I already told you why. Have you got any other analytical approaches to suggest instead? > [@](#): > > If you’re claiming Varitek helped them win more, wouldn’t there be a difference in, well, _wins_? Compared to what baseline data? I already pointed out that you just don’t have that opportunity statistically. > [@](#): > > And I’m also going to say that you’re starting to come off like a jerk in this thread. Ease up, indeed. Please. Do you have an actual argument or just invective? Are you gonna challenge me to meet you in the parking lot after school, huh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlb-spring-training-2009/485405.md?page=5)