# MLK's vision: Are we moving towards it or away from it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470 "2019-08-10T20:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/41 "2019-08-13T02:53:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Likewise, continually pointing out that you’ve let something go is sort of the opposite of demonstrating that you’ve actually let something go. This is comical. You don’t get that I wont engage with you on the topic because of your extremely toxic behavior, but I’m happy to engage enough to point out your toxicity. > [@](#): > > That speech was, admittedly, the single best speech ever given in the English language, and possibly in any language. Much as I am enthralled by the words therein, I do think this is a hyperbolic description of his speech. It’s most remembered, I think, because it fundamentally strikes a chord with people. It speaks to a base truth that people recognize. It’s highlights an ideal that most people want to be true of themselves. How can I put it: I don’t know anyone who wants to be an asshole, but I know plenty of assholes. None of them _believe_ they are or aspire to be so, though. And the desire for something to be true is often the catalyst for people believing that it is true, even when it objectively isn’t. I know enough people who believe they judge by character, but then talk about “that thug” on the news who later turns out to be dead, black, and innocent. But they swear by MLK… ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/42 "2019-08-13T11:27:00Z")
So how the heck would anyone REALLY know what King thought? I cant say I’ve ever really studied anything he wrote. DID he really write alot about major issues? How would his views have changed? Wasnt it Abbey Hoffman who said years ago “dont trust anyone over 30” and later on said “dont trust anyone UNDER 30”. People and views change with experience. Remember the man was only 39 when he was killed. How would he have reacted to school de-segregation of the 70’s? I was of the impression he actually LIKED segregated schools because he didnt trust whites to run the education of black children. How would he have reacted to the breakdown of the black family which was partially from government programs? Basically I just dont think you can judge a man from just one speech. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/43 "2019-08-13T11:31:15Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So how the heck would anyone REALLY know what King thought? I cant say I’ve ever really studied anything he wrote. DID he really write alot about major issues? > > How would his views have changed? Wasnt it Abbey Hoffman who said years ago “dont trust anyone over 30” and later on said “dont trust anyone UNDER 30”. People and views change with experience. > > Remember the man was only 39 when he was killed. > > How would he have reacted to school de-segregation of the 70’s? I was of the impression he actually LIKED segregated schools because he didnt trust whites to run the education of black children. > > How would he have reacted to the breakdown of the black family which was partially from government programs? > > Basically I just dont think you can judge a man from just one speech. I think this may just be one of my favorite posts I’ve ever seen on this forum. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/44 "2019-08-13T13:23:07Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So how the heck would anyone REALLY know what King thought? I cant say I’ve ever really studied anything he wrote.\*\* DID he really write alot about major issues?\*\* > > Bolding mine. > > Basically I just dont think you can judge a man from just one speech. I just used this nifty tool called Google and came up with [this](https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Testament-Hope-Essential-Writings-Martin/dp/0060646918/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g8682124849?_encoding=UTF8&%2AVersion%2A=1&%2Aentries%2A=0&ie=UTF8). You might try it some time. > [@](#): > > A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings of Martin Luther King > > An exhaustive collection of the speeches, writings, and interviews with the Nobel Prize-winning activist. It appears to be a big book. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/45 "2019-08-13T15:05:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If a black person applies at 10 companies, and the first 9 pass him by for a white guy with equal qualification, you cannot call any of them racist, they all can say they just flipped a coin; but the tenth company sees the difficulty that person has had to overcome, and hires him over a slightly more qualified white guy, that last company is the racist one, correct? I did answer this question, with a resounding yes. If a slightly more qualified candidate gets rejected due to the color of his skin, that is racist. Clearly you disagree, because difficulty something something. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/46 "2019-08-13T15:33:30Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I did answer this question, with a resounding yes. > > If a slightly more qualified candidate gets rejected due to the color of his skin, that is racist. It’s not about hating or discriminating against the white guy because of the color of his skin. It’s about recognizing that racism has made life harder for the black guy at every step of the way, and that that necessarily must play into their evaluation. And of course, there’s absolutely nothing racist about the other companies going for the equally qualified white guy all those other times. That’s just a thing that happens. Totally normal. That’s never a racist thing. Remember, folks, the only real racism is when someone explicitly does something based on skin color (regardless of why, and especially if it’s making up for racial biases), and never when subconscious biases lead to discrimination based on race. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/47 "2019-08-13T16:01:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It’s not about hating or discriminating against the white guy because of the color of his skin. > > It’s about recognizing that racism has made life harder for the black guy at every step of the way, and that that necessarily must play into their evaluation. > > And of course, there’s absolutely nothing racist about the other companies going for the equally qualified white guy all those other times. That’s just a thing that happens. Totally normal. That’s never a racist thing. > > Remember, folks, the only real racism is when someone explicitly does something based on skin color (regardless of why, and especially if it’s making up for racial biases), and never when subconscious biases lead to discrimination based on race. See, I think this is where talks about equality go off the rails. You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal. Trying to legislate equality by giving advantages to people (who may very well be needful of them) is by definition not equal. This is why I do not see a way to legislate away racial disparity in regards to what you WANT to see. We CAN legislate away racial disparity with what we DO SEE. You will never ever know the person’s mind or motivations. All of those white folks that got hired, all of them could or could NOT have been racially motivated. But you’d rather err on the side of calling everything racist (and you are far from the only one) than to just let things work themselves out by actually granting EVERYONE equality. (of opportunity anyway, because we all know that some folks want equality of outcomes to be the goal) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/48 "2019-08-13T16:21:10Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Congratulations, you’ve gotten your wish. The world is now completely colorblind! You literally cannot see skin color or any other phenotypical differences between black people and white people. The only way anyone can tell you’re white is that you spend a whole lot of time on the internet being very happy that nobody can tell what race you are any more. > > So how would you propose dealing with the massive wealth disparity that comes from one (no-longer-recognizable) group spending the last 300 years aggregating wealth and power, and the other (no-longer-recognizable) group spending almost all of the last 300 years de facto or de jure enslaved, discriminated against, and abused? Do we just accept these class differences and expect them to eventually sort themselves out, or what? > > We have racial divides whether you like it or not. These divides come from centuries of racism. Slavery, sharecropping, Jim Crow, redlining, blockbusting, the war on drugs, police brutality against black men, and much more. All acts of aggression by white people against black people that left deep wounds on countless communities. And now you want to say “forget all that” and pretend that we’re even? Even if we assume that we can be colorblind (we aren’t, as [countless](https://www.cracked.com/article_21822_5-studies-that-prove-racism-still-way-worse-than-we-think.html) [studies](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html) have shown, _even close to that point_), how does one ignore countless historical misdeeds and come out with justice? > > (For anyone interested in how this sort of thing plays out in practice, Contrapoints did a deep dive into the way racist policies affected Freddie Gray, destroyed his life, and ultimately led to his death at the hands of the police. You can find it here - “[Baltimore - Anatomy of an Uprising](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r6GBo_7UNc)”.) White people as a group have not spent 300 years aggregating wealth and power. Almost all the wealth a person accumulates over their lifetime is spent during their lifetimes. According to this [study](https://www.nber.org/papers/w16840) 75% of white people receive no inheritance at all. The highest earning ethnic group in the US are Indians and most of those came in the last 20 years. The history of the US is a history of persecuted groups coming to the US, and achieving huge gains in wealth with little or no help from the government. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/49 "2019-08-13T16:23:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The history of the US is a history of persecuted groups coming to the US, and achieving huge gains in wealth with little or no help from the government. Somehow this history is different for the groups that were either brought against their will, or who already lived here when the Europeans arrived. I wonder if that history could have something to do with the difference in statistical outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/50 "2019-08-13T16:26:46Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Much as I am enthralled by the words therein, I do think this is a hyperbolic description of his speech. Okay. What speech in English is better-known around the world than the “I Have a Dream” speech? What speech is better, both in context and delivery? What speech in any language fits these criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/51 "2019-08-13T16:34:44Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > See, I think this is where talks about equality go off the rails. You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal. > Trying to legislate equality by giving advantages to people (who may very well be needful of them) is by definition not equal. Except that’s simply not true. If there’s a significant unintentional hiring bias against black people, instituting an intentional hiring bias in favor of black people absolutely is a step towards equality. It’s not as good as just getting rid of the first unintentional bias, but it’s a damn sight better than what you’re proposing, where the subconscious bias is allowed to run rampant with nobody noticing or caring, and any attempt to combat it is somehow “racism”. (This is what we call the “colorblind” approach, and there’s a reason it’s generally considered totally absurd by anyone who actually spends time studying racism and its impact.) > [@](#): > > This is why I do not see a way to legislate away racial disparity in regards to what you WANT to see. We CAN legislate away racial disparity with what we DO SEE. > You will never ever know the person’s mind or motivations. All of those white folks that got hired, all of them could or could NOT have been racially motivated. But you’d rather err on the side of calling everything racist (and you are far from the only one) than to just let things work themselves out by actually granting EVERYONE equality. (of opportunity anyway, because we all know that some folks want equality of outcomes to be the goal) To quote [Scott Alexander](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/), “Arguing about whether a post-racial society should provide equality of opportunity or equality of results is a little like arguing about whether in the worker’s paradise, everyone should have a pony or everyone should have two ponies.” > [@](#): > > Right now, there is not even equality of opportunity. [Rigorous well-controlled study after rigorous well-controlled study](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/20/social-justice-for-the-highly-demanding-of-rigor/) has shown that women and minorities face gigantic amounts of baseless discrimination in various areas, most notably employment. This remains true even when, for example, the experiment is sending perfectly identical resumes out to companies but with the photo of a black or white guy at the top. > > Once we have equality of opportunity, then we can start debating whether we should go further and try for equality of results. Until then, it’s kind of a moot point. If the only racism you can detect is overt, explicit racism, you will miss almost all racism. Then, when the people who have actually been paying attention and following societal trends speak up and say, “Hey, we need to actually do something about this subconscious/covert racism,” the response from those who haven’t been paying attention is “HEY, WHY ARE YOU DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME?!”. This is a _phenomenally_ naive understanding of bias and equality that ignores nearly everything we know about modern racism and subconscious biases. The honest truth is that even with affirmative action programs, people of color are [underrepresented in colleges](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/24/us/affirmative-action.html), [high-paying jobs](https://www.ibj.com/articles/68204-blacks-underrepresented-in-high-paying-job-categories-analysis-finds), and [the government](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/18/blacks-have-made-gains-in-u-s-political-leadership-but-gaps-remain/). But sure, let’s act like the main racist problem today are programs that aim to deal with that gap. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/52 "2019-08-13T16:58:10Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal. The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. – Anatole France ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/53 "2019-08-13T17:19:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay. What speech in English is better-known around the world than the “I Have a Dream” speech? What speech is better, both in context and delivery? What speech in any language fits these criteria? Well for starters, I’m not entertaining a burden-of-proof shifting here, and second, you’re asking me to disprove a subjective opinion. Maybe you value it that much, and I’ll grant your right to an opinion, but ultimately this is a frivolous exercise. > [@](#): > > See, I think this is where talks about equality go off the rails. You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal. > Trying to legislate equality by giving advantages to people (who may very well be needful of them) is by definition not equal. For the most part, I do agree with you, but with a nuance I think needs to be specified. Bias is not bad, provided what you are biased against itself is not bad. I am biased against believing people who _already lied to me once_, for instance. I agree that race based bias is unacceptable, but I’m fine with demonstrating bias by, say, helping people who can’t afford an education getting one over providing the exact same monetary compensation to someone who doesn’t. In terms of equality, I think ensuring _everyone_ a minimum degree of support in times of demonstrated need is still fair, even if it’s not objectively “equal treatment.” > [@](#): > > The honest truth is that even with affirmative action programs, people of color are underrepresented in colleges, high-paying jobs, and the government. This is true, but what’s that figure _adjusted for poverty?_ ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/54 "2019-08-13T17:33:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Somehow this history is different for the groups that were either brought against their will, or who already lived here when the Europeans arrived. I wonder if that history could have something to do with the difference in statistical outcomes? History affects everybody, but what I am disputing is that hundreds of years of accumulation is what causes the difference in wealth. Immigrant groups show that significant wealth can be accumulated very quickly. For example Nigerian Americans earn 16% more than Cajun Americans, despite the fact that most Nigerian immigration happened in the last 30 years and Cajuns have been in this country for 250 years. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/55 "2019-08-13T19:49:25Z")
Like… a prescient example, **Kearsen1**. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=880014](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=880014) Is that racist? From what I can tell, you have no way to tell. We can’t see into the cops’ hearts, so for all we know, they would have done that to anyone, and not just to a black man. That said, everyone in that thread seems to be under the impression that this was _super fucking racist_. Why do you reckon that is? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/56 "2019-08-13T19:54:08Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Well for starters, I’m not entertaining a burden-of-proof shifting here, and second, you’re asking me to disprove a subjective opinion. Maybe you value it that much, and I’ll grant your right to an opinion, but ultimately this is a frivolous exercise. Talk about shifting the burden of proof–you called what I said hyperbolic. If you want to drop your silly point, I’m good with that, but if you really think it’s hyperbolic, I’m interested to know why you say that. I stand by what I said, as I cannot think of any other speech in English that’s as well-known as this one. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/57 "2019-08-13T20:28:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Talk about shifting the burden of proof–you called what I said hyperbolic. Ugh. You made a rather outsized claim. It’s perfectly reasonable to doubt that you have heard every single speech **ever** written in english as you claim. Until you have, concluding that a speech you happen to like is the **best ever** is completely irrational. Such a claim _is_ hyperbolic, unless you can prove that it isn’t. The burden of proof is yours, because you’re making the absurd claim. > [@](#): > > I stand by what I said, as I cannot think of any other speech in English that’s as well-known as this one. That is the **exact form** of the “Argument from Ignorance” fallacy. Not knowing a better one doesn’t prove in any way shape or form that no better one exists. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/58 "2019-08-13T21:05:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > White people as a group have not spent 300 years aggregating wealth and power. Almost all the wealth a person accumulates over their lifetime is spent during their lifetimes. According to this [study](https://www.nber.org/papers/w16840) 75% of white people receive no inheritance at all. As opposed to black people, where the number is… _checks notes_ [13%](https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/07/black-white-wealth-gap-inheritance/565640/). And the figure that study found for white people was 41%. The differences that they found between black and white families were stark. “Among college-educated black families, about 13 percent get an inheritance of more than $10,000, as opposed to about 41 percent of white, college-educated families,” Taylor said in a release announcing the new research. More specifically, white families that receive such an inheritance receive, on average, more than $150,000 from the previous generation, whereas that figure is less than $40,000 for black families. The article goes into detail the many ways that these generational wealth transfers make a huge difference. The scope of the study is different (it deals specifically with wealth in families where someone went to college), but in a way this study is considerably more telling, given that “people who went to college” tend to have significantly more impact on society than those who don’t - or does your company’s CEO not have a degree? > [@](#): > > The highest earning ethnic group in the US are Indians and most of those came in the last 20 years. > The history of the US is a history of persecuted groups coming to the US, and achieving huge gains in wealth with little or no help from the government. Y’know, I’m no expert on the discrimination faced by Indian immigrants or the effects it has on their wealth. Would you like to go over some of the studies looking into it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/59 "2019-08-14T01:07:21Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Ugh. You made a rather outsized claim. It’s perfectly reasonable to doubt that you have heard every single speech **ever** written in english as you claim. Until you have, concluding that a speech you happen to like is the **best ever** is completely irrational. Such a claim _is_ hyperbolic, unless you can prove that it isn’t. > > The burden of proof is yours, because you’re making the absurd claim. > > That is the **exact form** of the “Argument from Ignorance” fallacy. Not knowing a better one doesn’t prove in any way shape or form that no better one exists. Sometimes, you gotta have a little back-and-forth with someone in order to figure out how seriously to take their posts. With you? That step’s complete. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2019, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470/60 "2019-08-14T05:18:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay. What speech in English is better-known around the world than the “I Have a Dream” speech? What speech is better, both in context and delivery? What speech in any language fits these criteria? Well, at the very least, wouldn’t you say it’s something of a US-centric view? I think you could probably say it’s one of the greatest speeches given in AMERICAN history. But I definitely feel that someone from another country might disagree at the notion that it’s the greatest speech in the WORLD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mlks-vision-are-we-moving-towards-it-or-away-from-it/838470.md?page=4)