# MMA: Boxing is dead to me **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754 "2010-10-20T07:20:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/41 "2010-10-26T18:44:17Z")
Just go back to any thread from July regarding soccer. Substitute MMA. Same friggin’ arguments. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/42 "2010-10-26T19:04:09Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Just go back to any thread from July regarding soccer. Substitute MMA. Same friggin’ arguments. There’s a point to be made there. I don’t like English football, and there are a lot of World Cup fans who don’t like baseball. It’s a matter of taste. Affinity for sports is ultimately an aesthetic concern. For me, going back to watching boxing regularly would be like turning my nose up as a gourmet meal in favor of Burger King. MMA has such a rich depth of technique and variation that it’s always challenging and mentally stimulating in addition to its visceral appeal. A fighter can grind out a decision with dominating wresting, knock a guy out with a punch after softening him up with low kicks, or end the fight by pulling out a submission–and this is just getting started. Boxing, to me, lacks the variety that we’ve come to love in the UFC. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/43 "2010-10-26T19:37:11Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Perhaps if they understood some of the techniques involved they might find it more interesting? Oh please. This broken record is beginning to make y’all sound like a bunch of _Twilight_ fans who assume that just because someone doesn’t like the books then they must not understand the inherent beauty and depth. It’s a neat way to completely ignore criticisms by putting yourselves in an elitist group who _sniff_ nobody understands! Look, just as it is possible to understand the difference between Edward and whatever the werewolf guy’s name is and still not like _Twilight_ it is possible to understand the difference between Judo and Jiu-Jitso and not like MMA. Now quit whining like twelve year old girls and just accept the fact that not everybody finds the object of your affection as deep and awe inspiring as you do. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/44 "2010-10-26T20:06:33Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Oh please. This broken record is beginning to make y’all sound like a bunch of _Twilight_ fans who assume that just because someone doesn’t like the books then they must not understand the inherent beauty and depth. It’s a neat way to completely ignore criticisms by putting yourselves in an elitist group who _sniff_ nobody understands! I have addressed the criticisms you have brought up, but you’re not giving me much to work with. Repeated complaints no more specific than “it is boring”, supporting examples that are completely irrelevant to what one sees in modern MMA, complaints about the music that was playing at some event in Japan, making silly names for techniques… these are the sort of criticisms that I tend to see in people who don’t have a clue as to what is going on in the fight. The only thing missing is the suggestion that two men rolling around on the ground must be gay. I could be wrong…maybe you are just not expressing your criticisms well? Did you have any specific ones? > [@](#): > > Look, just as it is possible to understand the difference between Edward and whatever the werewolf guy’s name is and still not like _Twilight_ it is possible to understand the difference between Judo and Jiu-Jitso and not like MMA. Of course, there are all sorts of valid reasons to dislike MMA. It can be brutal. There are certainly some problems with rules and scoring that need to be addressed. One may simply not like combat sports. I have just found – with any activity – a high correlation between vague accusations of “boring” and a low level of understanding in the accuser. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/45 "2010-10-26T20:46:22Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > There’s a point to be made there. I don’t like English football, and there are a lot of World Cup fans who don’t like baseball. It’s a matter of taste. Affinity for sports is ultimately an aesthetic concern. For me, going back to watching boxing regularly would be like turning my nose up as a gourmet meal in favor of Burger King. MMA has such a rich depth of technique and variation that it’s always challenging and mentally stimulating in addition to its visceral appeal. A fighter can grind out a decision with dominating wresting, knock a guy out with a punch after softening him up with low kicks, or end the fight by pulling out a submission–and this is just getting started. Boxing, to me, lacks the variety that we’ve come to love in the UFC. This is how I feel as well. To me the best fights are ones that are back and forth between the feet and the ground. This is why I like watching George St. Pierre fight; his fights seem to have a good mix of the two. Regarding your comment on the depth of technique and variation – I wonder… I am sure there is much more in MMA simply due to the variety of positions that will be encountered. On the other hand, each of the sub disciplines that make up MMA – kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, etc. – have a range of techniques that aren’t utilized in MMA. For example, sport jiu-jitsu has many positions that, while they may be useful in a jiu-jitsu tournament, would be very risky in an MMA match. Similarly, I remember a quote from a kickboxing coach that only 25% of the techniques in kickboxing are suitable for MMA. So I wonder if the disparity in variety of techniques is truly as much as one might initially think. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/46 "2010-10-26T21:02:28Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > The only thing missing is the suggestion that two men rolling around on the ground must be gay. What’s all this then? > [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > So the two fighters grab each other, fall to the ground, and hold each other in a loving embrace for 13 minutes. > > I’m not sure which board game is homoerotic foot fetish crotch punishment (_shoots and ladders_ maybe?), but I’m reasonably certain it ain’t chess. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/47 "2010-10-26T22:32:12Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Why? Can you elaborate? I enjoy MMA and WWE. So it’s not a knock. But I’ve heard that the MMA, while not scripting the outcome of the match, somestimes what you see in MMA is sometimes fought in a way that looks more violent that it is. Maybe some punch pulling, etc. Yeah, I know, tell that to Brock Lesnar. But the blood in the WWE is real too. As I said in my previous post, boxing just needs a big star. I mentioned Ali, but a Mike Tyson or a Sugar Ray Leonard would put boxing back on the sports map. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/48 "2010-10-26T23:22:47Z")
> [@kevja](#): > > I enjoy MMA and WWE. So it’s not a knock. But I’ve heard that the MMA, while not scripting the outcome of the match, somestimes what you see in MMA is sometimes fought in a way that looks more violent that it is. Maybe some punch pulling, etc. Vegas takes bets on MMA fights, and I assure you that their lawyers would be all over something like that before the fat/drunk redneck who told you that would. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/49 "2010-10-26T23:23:44Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > What’s all this then? Ha, that is funny. Ah well, I don’t suppose that was really going anywhere anyway; I can see why you bowed out a few posts ago. Anyway, Cisco… excited for Penn/Hughes III? I think that will be a great fight. Very strange situation with Penn in the lightweight division – so completely dominant, and then there is just one guy (Edgar) that matches up in some strange way with him that gives him trouble. I think he may still be just as dominant over every one else in the division, and I’m not even convinced that he shouldn’t be able to beat Edgar as well, if he would stick to a good game plan. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/50 "2010-10-26T23:39:59Z")
I have no dog in this fight. I enjoy watching boxing about equally with watching MMA, and really only ever do watch them online, well after the fact. As such, I’m grateful for the links to fights in this thread, as it exposes me to more and more fights and fighters. But I gotta tell ya, IMO, the pro-MMA side is way up on it’s high horse. For example: > [@misterW](#): > > To illustrate, check out one of my favorite fights: [Shinya Aoki vs. Eddie Alvarez](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awh8P4HW3Kk). Here we have a slightly built Japanese fighter who might be mistaken for an accountant (were it not for his cauliflower ears) who ends up at one point pursuing Alvarez (a wrestler/boxer with a reputation for engaging in slugfests) around the ring ON HIS BUTT. Aoki is simply that good on the ground that Alvarez thought it best not engage on his terms. It is funny, but it is also awesome – it completely destroys one’s model of what a fight should look like, and it is a very exciting fight between two skilled fighters. Check it out. I watched that fight, and the most “exciting” thing about it was Shinya’s ridiculous pants. :eek:😕 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/51 "2010-10-26T23:58:10Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Anyway, Cisco… excited for Penn/Hughes III? I think that will be a great fight. Very strange situation with Penn in the lightweight division – so completely dominant, and then there is just one guy (Edgar) that matches up in some strange way with him that gives him trouble. I think he may still be just as dominant over every one else in the division, and I’m not even convinced that he shouldn’t be able to beat Edgar as well, if he would stick to a good game plan. Actually, no. Penn is a real conundrum. I was just telling a friend the other day that if nobody trained, Penn could probably kick anyone’s ass on the planet. Unfortunately for him, everyone else trains. The Edgar thing is weird. I think Penn’s best performance ever, probably, was against Sanchez. I don’t think this is any coincidence. He was his biggest threat at lightweight. By the time he fought Edgar, both the press and the fans were coming back around to calling him the best lightweight ever, top 3 pound for pound, and invincible in his own weightclass. He thought he had absolutely nothing to fear from Edgar, and probably didn’t train much at all. I think he would’ve done much better against someone like Maynard (who will smash Edgar), whom he would’ve seen as at least somewhat of a threat. The thing with Hughes, for me, is that it really has no implications. If BJ wins, people are just going to say he beat an over-the-hill wrestler who he should’ve beat in their second fight anyway. If Hughes pulls off another miracle, people are just going to say he beat the smaller guy. It’s lose/lose. I’d rather see Penn move his training camp to the mainland, get away from the yes-men, and rededicate himself to the lightweight division. He has no gastank above 155lbs. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/52 "2010-10-27T00:03:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have no dog in this fight. > > I enjoy watching boxing about equally with watching MMA, and really only ever do watch them online, well after the fact. As such, I’m grateful for the links to fights in this thread, as it exposes me to more and more fights and fighters. > > But I gotta tell ya, IMO, the pro-MMA side is way up on it’s high horse. For example: > > I watched that fight, and the most “exciting” thing about it was Shinya’s ridiculous pants. :eek:😕 I can explain what makes it exciting for me; if that doesn’t help, well, to each his own. Eddie Alvarez is arguably the #1 lightweight in the world right now. He is a bad ass. Shinya Aoki is and has always been somewhat of a throwback in that he is a very one dimensional fighter. All he has is jiu-jitsu – but what a wizard he is on the ground! His opponents all know this, and one would think this would make it very difficult for him to pull off submissions (how else is he going to win), but time and time again he finds a way, over top competition. So there is always the thrill of “can Aoki pull off another one?” And here he did it again, after being thrown on his head and mounted, against Eddie Alvarez, no less. Seems exciting to me. And a very nice footlock he pulled off. I also find it fascinating that you actually have a situation where one of the top professional fighters turns and runs from a man scooting towards him on his butt. He was not trying to be funny, and the reaction was appropriate – such is the strength of Aoki’s ground game. But who ever could have imagined that a fight between two elites would look like that? ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/53 "2010-10-27T00:12:18Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Actually, no. > > Penn is a real conundrum. I was just telling a friend the other day that if nobody trained, Penn could probably kick anyone’s ass on the planet. Unfortunately for him, everyone else trains. Ha, that is probably true. > [@](#): > > The Edgar thing is weird. I think Penn’s best performance ever, probably, was against Sanchez. I don’t think this is any coincidence. He was his biggest threat at lightweight. By the time he fought Edgar, both the press and the fans were coming back around to calling him the best lightweight ever, top 3 pound for pound, and invincible in his own weightclass. He thought he had absolutely nothing to fear from Edgar, and probably didn’t train much at all. I think he would’ve done much better against someone like Maynard (who will smash Edgar), whom he would’ve seen as at least somewhat of a threat. He definitely seemed unmotivated for the first Edgar fight. You would have thought for the second one, he would take him seriously, though. I really hope Maynard does not beat Edgar. It does seem to be a bad matchup for Edgar, and Maynard has beaten him before, but I wouldn’t count Edgar out. I think his boxing is superior and if he can just stay off the fence…who knows? > [@](#): > > The thing with Hughes, for me, is that it really has no implications. If BJ wins, people are just going to say he beat an over-the-hill wrestler who he should’ve beat in their second fight anyway. If Hughes pulls off another miracle, people are just going to say he beat the smaller guy. It’s lose/lose. I don’t know, I think BJ beating Hughes would still be impressive. People were quick to dismiss hughes, but he has looked good lately, and had a very impressive win over Almeida. That aside, I just think it will be an exciting fight – the first two were exciting and I think the history will bring the best out of both. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/54 "2010-10-27T00:28:12Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > He definitely seemed unmotivated for the first Edgar fight. You would have thought for the second one, he would take him seriously, though. I think BJ thought he won the first one (and I kind of do too), and that if he fought exactly the same fight, the judges would see it his way this time. Edgar fought a lot better the second time, though. > [@misterW](#): > > I really hope Maynard does not beat Edgar. It does seem to be a bad matchup for Edgar, and Maynard has beaten him before, but I wouldn’t count Edgar out. I think his boxing is superior and if he can just stay off the fence…who knows? Anything’s possible, but I can see a lot of ways for Maynard to win and not very many ways for Edgar to win. They’re pretty similar except for Maynard’s power, which I think will make all the difference [again]. > [@misterW](#): > > I don’t know, I think BJ beating Hughes would still be impressive. People were quick to dismiss hughes, but he has looked good lately, and had a very impressive win over Almeida. That aside, I just think it will be an exciting fight – the first two were exciting and I think the history will bring the best out of both. I agree it would be impressive, and Hughes looked amazing in the Almeida fight. Nobody could’ve predicted the farmaconda :D. I have mixed feelings about Hughes. He really presents himself as an asshole, but I’ve met him and he’s very personable one on one. I read his book, and, unlike a lot of fighters’ books, I believed every word of it, because he made himself look like a raging asshole and no one would lie to do that. I’d like to see both Hughes and Penn take another stab at the top of their respective weight divisions (as unlikely as that seems in Hughes’ case, I wouldn’t rule it out), than waste what could be one of their twilight fights scrapping with each other again. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/55 "2010-10-27T00:55:41Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I think BJ thought he won the first one (and I kind of do too), and that if he fought exactly the same fight, the judges would see it his way this time. Edgar fought a lot better the second time, though. It could be. It seemed the second time that Penn came out very aggressively in the first round and after he didn’t dominate as expected, and in fact lost the round, he became demoralized. I have always thought that Penn needs to initiate takedowns more, especially against a smaller fighter like Edgar. For God’s sake, he has the best top game in MMA, why not use it as much as possible? The general consensus seems to be that Hughes is a real ass, at least in his personal life, but I will say that he has always seemed very classy in his post fight interviews. > [@](#): > > I’d like to see both Hughes and Penn take another stab at the top of their respective weight divisions (as unlikely as that seems in Hughes’ case, I wouldn’t rule it out), than waste what could be one of their twilight fights scrapping with each other again. I could certainly see Penn as champ again, especially if he switched camps. Hughes is still solidly in the top of his division, but I don’t see him beating GSP, Koschek, or Fitch. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/56 "2010-10-27T01:47:58Z")
If Hughes were able to get past Koschek or Fitch (huge “if”), I could almost see him shocking GSP. Dude badly needs a real striking coach, though. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/57 "2010-10-27T02:00:05Z")
Actually, I’m not taking it for granted that Georges will beat Koschek and Shields. I know anything can happen. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/58 "2010-10-27T02:32:41Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > If Hughes were able to get past Koschek or Fitch (huge “if”), I could almost see him shocking GSP. Dude badly needs a real striking coach, though. Well, anything can happen, but I think of Shields, Hughes, Fitch, and Koschek, Hughes is the biggest long shot. He was out-struck and knocked out in their second fight and simply destroyed in their third – tossed around like a rag doll before being submitted. I think Koschek is still the biggest threat. He has the best wrestling of the bunch and is capable of putting St. Pierre on his back, and he is capable of knocking out his opponents as well (ie see Dustin Hazlett and Yoshida). My money is on St. Pierre, and I think he is unarguably the better fighter, but it would not be terribly shocking if Koschek upset him. Fitch is a great, well rounded fighter, but St. Pierre is better at each facet of the game. I think their second fight would resemble the first. If Shields can take St. Pierre down, the fight becomes interesting, but that is a big if. I think it is just a poor match up for Shields. St. Pierre is very difficult to take down, would likely be able to get back to his feet when he is, and has much better standup than Shields. I think if any of those fighters is going to upset him, it will be Koschek – as much as I would hate to see that. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/59 "2010-10-27T03:23:07Z")
> [@kevja](#): > > I enjoy MMA and WWE. So it’s not a knock. But I’ve heard that the MMA, while not scripting the outcome of the match, somestimes what you see in MMA is sometimes fought in a way that looks more violent that it is. Maybe some punch pulling, etc. You may have heard that MMA looks more violent than it actually is, due to shorter fights than boxing, bloody but largely superficial cuts, etc., and that’s largely true. However, it’s absolutely false that what you’re seeing somehow isn’t entirely “real” or is “worked” in any way like a pro wrestling match. Unlike professional wrestling, mixed martial arts is regulated by state laws and administrative codes governing combative sports, and overseen by state regulative agencies, etc., same as boxing. Those laws are enforced on promoters, managers, referees and combatants very, very strictly. A promoter or manager who attempted to tamper with either the mechanics or the outcome of a match in any way would be looking at the loss of his license and surety bond, suspension or banning, and possible civil or criminal penalities. Even if that weren’t the case, there’s no incentive for any fighter to “work” a fight and pull punches or “make it look more violent” somehow. The fighter’s job is to win fights, and their fight record is their resume and career. Whether you find it fascinating or boring, MMA is a regulated and legitimate combat sport, not a worked show for the crowds. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754/60 "2010-10-27T03:48:12Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Well, anything can happen, but I think of Shields, Hughes, Fitch, and Koschek, Hughes is the biggest long shot. He was out-struck and knocked out in their second fight and simply destroyed in their third – tossed around like a rag doll before being submitted. > > I think Koschek is still the biggest threat. He has the best wrestling of the bunch and is capable of putting St. Pierre on his back, and he is capable of knocking out his opponents as well (ie see Dustin Hazlett and Yoshida). My money is on St. Pierre, and I think he is unarguably the better fighter, but it would not be terribly shocking if Koschek upset him. > > Fitch is a great, well rounded fighter, but St. Pierre is better at each facet of the game. I think their second fight would resemble the first. > > If Shields can take St. Pierre down, the fight becomes interesting, but that is a big if. I think it is just a poor match up for Shields. St. Pierre is very difficult to take down, would likely be able to get back to his feet when he is, and has much better standup than Shields. > > I think if any of those fighters is going to upset him, it will be Koschek – as much as I would hate to see that. I completely agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mma-boxing-is-dead-to-me/557754.md?page=4)