# MMR: all a lie. Damn you Dr Wakefield. (Mild) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920 "2009-02-08T13:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/41 "2009-02-09T19:50:41Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Wakefield may very well be a highly dishonest scientist (at the very least, he appears to be recklessly incompetent), but the MMR scare would not and could not have existed without the completely craven and one-eyed complicity of the media, who report only headline-grabbing results and frequently present articles as fact with no expertise nor even a balanced layman’s view. > > Only now, when the sensational story is available (“Dodgy Scientist Fakes Data!”, “Wakefield a Fraud!”), is the story seriously revisited; only if Wakefield was deliberately mendacious is it considered publishable. Yet in the _eleven years_ since Wakefield’s original publication, there has been an absolute wealth of counter-evidence for his claims. It has gone almost entirely unremarked; disproven theories aren’t news, it seems. We’re only interested in things that cure or cause cancer (and especially in things that do both). > > So while it’s all very well to congratulate the Times if indeed they’ve uncovered wrongdoing on the part of Wakefield, one has to question why it requires this sort of revelation for a national newspaper to weigh in seriously on one of the biggest public health fuckups in decades. Wakefield’s original research, even if it had been meticulously carried out, should never have endangered the nation’s health in the way it has been allowed to, and identifying the reasons it did are far more important than rooting out one dodgy character. > [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Quite. As Goldacre convincingly argues, the media is now in a frantic phase of self-exoneration. “Nothing to do with us, ma’am. Just the facts; just the facts.” It’s worse than that. I haven’t seen this in the news yet over here. I scanned the Denver Post this morning - didn’t see a mention. I did a search over on CNN - no mention. No mention on any major news site that I could find, other than the London Times and The Huffington Post. So, the media over here hasn’t even started reporting this new “sensational” story, which means many people won’t hear of it. Although there’s already a discussion thread over on the [Mothering.com](http://Mothering.com) boards, in which they’re saying they don’t care, or that Wakefield’s the victim of a witch hunt, etc… ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/42 "2009-02-09T20:25:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In the U.K., the affair was very badly handled. The government forbade doctors from using the old, separate, vaccines and just flatly denied any problem. It would have been over in 3 months if they’d said something along the lines of, “Okay, let’s look at your data. In the mean time, concerned parents can opt for the old vaccines.” And he would have been found to be a fraud very quickly. > > But he’s now been well and truly kebabbed. Or he well and truly SHOULD be. A 1" steel rod ought to be enough to hold on and lightly brown the good Dr. in the fires. Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/43 "2009-02-09T20:25:47Z")
Huh - I was under the impression that Wakefield wasn’t so important a figure in the States, the scare there being less to do with the combined vaccine than with concerns over mercury-containing preservative. I could be entirely wrong, of course, but I thought he was only really associated with the American version of the scare via the stupid syllogism: Wakefield has discovered a bad thing about vaccines. I believe a bad thing about vaccines. Therefore, I am right. Of course, in general I agree; it would be nice to see them reporting it nonetheless. But I’ve lowered my expectations quite a lot in the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/44 "2009-02-09T21:28:51Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Huh - I was under the impression that Wakefield wasn’t so important a figure in the States, the scare there being less to do with the combined vaccine than with concerns over mercury-containing preservative. I could be entirely wrong, of course, but I thought he was only really associated with the American version of the scare via the stupid syllogism: > > Wakefield has discovered a bad thing about vaccines. > I believe a bad thing about vaccines. > Therefore, I am right. > > Of course, in general I agree; it would be nice to see them reporting it nonetheless. But I’ve lowered my expectations quite a lot in the last few years. The funny thing (to the extent that anything about this is funny) is that the antivax cranks don’t seem to care what “bad thing” is as long as its bad. You can find web sites whose banners proclaim that all autism is caused by mercury in vaccines defending Wakefield who argued that a vaccine that **never contained mercury** causes autism - and the contradiction never seems to enter their minds. Antivaxxer have a “big tent” philosophy, apparently - contradictory theories about the badness of vaccines are all-ok ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/45 "2009-02-09T21:48:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In the U.K., the affair was very badly handled. The government forbade doctors from using the old, separate, vaccines and just flatly denied any problem. It would have been over in 3 months if they’d said something along the lines of, “Okay, let’s look at your data. In the mean time, concerned parents can opt for the old vaccines.” And he would have been found to be a fraud very quickly. This assumes that sufficient stocks of single vaccines were available, that parents wouldn’t have been scared away from using _those_ vaccines, and that it would only have taken three months to show that Wakefield’s results were inaccurate and (as is now being reported, allegedly fraudulent). Lots of assumptions there. It took way longer than three months, as I recall, for Wakefield’s ties to (and payments from) the trial lawyers to be exposed, and for well-done research refuting his findings to get published. The question is whether Wakefield’s published conclusions in support of an autism-MMR link were so compelling that a major alteration in immunization policy needed to occur as a result. Based on the evidence, public health experts did not believe so, and have been vindicated. What would have happened if vaccinations for millions of kids were either postponed or foregone entirely as a result of government giving credence to the scare? Arguably, the resurgence of measles and other infectious diseases in the U.K. would have been much worse, with many more injuries and deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/46 "2009-02-10T01:11:32Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > We’ve had a couple of anti-vaccination nuts. They fail badly as they are used to just throwing out copy & paste stuff from whale.to or other crap sites. When they get confronted with reality and facts, which this board has in spades, they melt. > > A quick search shows the last one was **foresam** back in 2007. Liked to think of himself as a ‘free helper’. He got pounded, but never would admit it. Usually, the anti-vaxxers (and other conspiracy nuts generally) are drawn in by a Cecil column or Staff Report; I mostly see them in the comments forums (fora?). If anyone wants to point and laugh, we currently have an anti-vaxxer over in the [Gardasil thread in GD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=505409) ([this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10805716&postcount=15)and [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10805812&postcount=17)). Remember, be nice; he probably got that way from receiving MMR as a child. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/47 "2009-02-10T01:32:48Z")
I hate the anti-vax crowd with the heat of one thousand suns. Not only are they ignorant, foolish idiots, but they are endangering other children, not just their own. My nephew is immune-suppressed and cannot ever be vaccinated against certain diseases (those that involve live-virus vaccination, as opposed to killed-virus vaccines which are safe for him). We absolutely depend on herd immunity **to keep him alive**. But even having their patron saint shown to be a non-scientist and a fucking liar and a greedy fuckwad, they won’t see reason. :mad: Hell, they take their medical cues from a stupid blond bimbo whose only really achievement so far was sucking her own nipple during a _Playboy_ photo shoot. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/48 "2009-02-10T02:29:10Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > A quick search shows the last one was **foresam** back in 2007. Liked to think of himself as a ‘free helper’. He got pounded, but never would admit it. Who was the anti-vacc. guy who’s mommy showed up at one point? Anyone remember him? ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/49 "2009-02-10T02:48:11Z")
I have seen so many children die from unpreventable diseases that if I ever met Andrew Wakefield, the man who caused so many preventable diseases, I don’t think I could be held responsible for my actions. I want rabid badgers to gnaw on this man’s testicles. I want every person who meets him in the future to slap him firmly in the face. I want fire ants to invade his urethra. I want badgers and fire ants to invade his urethra while the parents of the children who caught the measles due to this asshole’s idiocy slap him in the face. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/50 "2009-02-10T02:50:05Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > If anyone wants to point and laugh, we currently have an anti-vaxxer over in the [Gardasil thread in GD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=505409) ([this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10805716&postcount=15)and [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10805812&postcount=17)). Remember, be nice; he probably got that way from receiving MMR as a child. Well, to be fair, he hasn’t yet said (as far as I can see, i didn’t read all of his (her?) posts in full) that he thinks autism and vaccines are linked. He seems to be basing his stance on the “fact” that vaccines don’t provide adequate protection as compared to getting the virus and gaining natural immunity…cause we all know that the world would have been better off if we just let everyone get smallpox instead of vaccinating them. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/51 "2009-02-10T03:13:57Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Well, to be fair, he hasn’t yet said (as far as I can see, i didn’t read all of his (her?) posts in full) that he thinks autism and vaccines are linked. He seems to be basing his stance on the “fact” that vaccines don’t provide adequate protection as compared to getting the virus and gaining natural immunity…cause we all know that the world would have been better off if we just let everyone get smallpox instead of vaccinating them. It’s worse, in a way. “I don’t think vaccines directly cause any harm to anyone, but I still won’t use them, 'cause it’s better for people just to get sick.” 😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/52 "2009-02-10T03:38:11Z")
Does anyone know if Oprah ever did a show to present the pro-vaccination point of view? I remember that she had Jenny McCarthy on years ago. Like it or not, probably more people are convinced by Oprah than by a medical journal report. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/53 "2009-02-10T04:36:55Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Does anyone know if Oprah ever did a show to present the pro-vaccination point of view? I remember that she had Jenny McCarthy on years ago. Like it or not, probably more people are convinced by Oprah than by a medical journal report. I brought this very point up last night, frothing at the mouth that Oprah (who, as much as we might not like to admit, has a HUGE pulpit at her disposal) probably won’t even mention this. I said “is she going to bring Brian Deer and Jenny McCarthy on and let them duke it out? OF COURSE NOT.” After the SO peeled me off the ceiling, he suggested I contact Oprah and demand that she discuss these new revelations on her show. I’m seriously thinking about doing that. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/54 "2009-02-10T05:13:44Z")
Wakefield should be made to atone for his actions that have undoubtedly resulted in great harm to society - let’s use him as a human test subject for future vaccines! I need to tell my brother about this, he’s kinda conspiracy prone and he heard about Wakefield’s “research” on TV and believed it. He’s really stubborn though so it’s gonna take me a heated argument just to get him to accept that Wakefield really is a phony and it’s not just a smear campaign against him. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/55 "2009-02-10T05:43:55Z")
May I please request some links to some good sites specializing in thoroughly debunking the vaccine-autism claims? I’ve got the links to Ben Goldacre’s site and the _Times_ article, but I’m looking for something a little more exhaustive. When I search with Google for “debunking vaccine MMR autism”, I get loads of hits, but they’re mostly individual articles from newspapers and other sites which cover a wide variety of issues rather than sites concentrating solely on critiquing the anti-vaxxer’s autism arguments. Two sites in my pocket already are [QuackWatch on Autism](http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/autism.html), and [The National Council Against Health Fraud](http://www.ncahf.org/index.html), which I’ve read for years, but again, I’m looking for sites that are dedicated to the vaccine-autism issue. Also, I’m trying to find any reference to a careful scientific survey conducted somewhere in Scandinavia (IIRC) that demonstrated that there was no statistically significant difference in autism rates between children who had been vaccinated and those who never were. I can’t think of a more devastating case against the alleged vaccine-autism link than that! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jaglavak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@Jaglavak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaglavak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/56 "2009-02-10T08:49:59Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > … may he never find a decent parking space again. Brutal! OK look, you guys with the torture are starting to get a little disturbing. If you really feel that way (and I couldn’t disagree) then let’s just kick the fucker off a cliff and be done with it. To the Oprah fans, why not send her an email? From what I’ve heard she’s got the nads to do an expose. And it would be a huge contraversial ratings-getter which is what she’s really all about anyway. Can’t hurt, might help. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/57 "2009-02-10T09:45:10Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > Also, I’m trying to find any reference to a careful scientific survey conducted somewhere in Scandinavia (IIRC) that demonstrated that there was no statistically significant difference in autism rates between children who had been vaccinated and those who never were. I can’t think of a more devastating case against the alleged vaccine-autism link than that! I found [this](http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/347/19/1477). The link leads to a summary of a Danish study involving over 500.000 children. There’s also a Finnish study of 1.8 million vaccinees, where they found 173 serious side effects, none related to autism. I haven’t found it yet, though. Also, do a search for Christopher Gillberg, a Swedish child psychiatrist who’s examined the prevalence of autism before and after the MMR-vaccine was implemented in Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/58 "2009-02-10T12:25:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m sorry, but I just don’t have a mastery of creative vitriol. I’m just really mild mannered. Most of the time. I match both your outrage at the news and inability to post something more imaginative and cutting than “bastard.” ---
**Author:** ![auRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@auRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auRa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/59 "2009-02-10T13:00:23Z")
> [@Claptree](#): > > There’s also a Finnish study of 1.8 million vaccinees, where they found 173 serious side effects, none related to autism. I haven’t found it yet, though. I found [this](http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/331/21/1397) study from 1994 as well, but [this](http://www.pidj.org/pt/re/pidj/abstract.00006454-200012000-00002.htm;jsessionid=JR5Zffj1931STBwNlhX236pwhWhBSzGw4L620T3LHqbfy9R2byvy!-1035908147!181195628!8091!-1) is what you were referencing. The link is to a summary. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/60 "2009-02-10T14:37:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In the U.K., the affair was very badly handled. The government forbade doctors from using the old, separate, vaccines and just flatly denied any problem. It would have been over in 3 months if they’d said something along the lines of, “Okay, let’s look at your data. In the mean time, concerned parents can opt for the old vaccines.” And he would have been found to be a fraud very quickly. No. No. No. That is stupidity. Capitulating on this issue, saying “even though the MMR vaccine has been tested and vindicated on every level, we’re going to fold and instead let people decide to go with a far less tested, more expensive system that is less likely to be followed as it involves multiple trip to the doctors”, that would have been absolutely the wrong way to handle it. As for Wakefield, well if I was in his position then I would have to wake up every morning with the knowledge that I was a child murderer. Perhaps his take is different. Either way, he’s a cunt. The other party that I’m annoyed at here is Private Eye, who not only supported this idiot, but have still to apologise for doing so and admit they were wrong. I usually hold the Eye in great esteem, so this really is very surprising to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920.md?page=4)