# MMR: all a lie. Damn you Dr Wakefield. (Mild) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920 "2009-02-08T13:26:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/61 "2009-02-10T14:48:32Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > May I please request some links to some good sites specializing in thoroughly debunking the vaccine-autism claims? A blog that has extensively covered the alleged vaccine-autism link is [Respectful Insolence](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence). There’s an archive with many articles on the antivax movement and the science debunking their claims. Also recommended is [Science-Based Medicine](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=36). [Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia](http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=84662) has a good section on vaccine information and safety, including info on Wakefield and autism claims. Also try [this site](http://www.vaccineinformation.org) for comprehensive vaccine/vaccine safety information. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/62 "2009-02-10T14:59:38Z")
Well, I’ve never been anti-MMR vaccination. But this news has made me change my position on a tangential issue. Up until now, I’ve taken the position that it’s not completely unreasonable for a person to be wary of the MMR vaccine based on these findings, even though subsequent research failed to replicate Wakefield’s results. Based on this new revelation, I now agree that it’s objectively unreasonable for anyone to reject MMR vaccine on the basis that it may cause autism. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/63 "2009-02-10T15:12:02Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Does anyone know if Oprah ever did a show to present the pro-vaccination point of view? I remember that she had Jenny McCarthy on years ago. Like it or not, probably more people are convinced by Oprah than by a medical journal report. Yeah, but TV is all about being exciting, and Jenny McCarthy is far more exciting than some scientist no one’s ever heard of. She’s also a mom, which makes Oprah’s audience relate to her. And the scientist would probably want to talk about, y’know, science, and that makes most middle Americans’ eyes glaze over. I’m not saying Oprah shouldn’t do such a show, and I think it would be irresponsible of her not to do it. I’m just saying, is all. Wakefield should have his doctorate taken away in a public ceremony, and his next experiment should be on himself. Robin ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/64 "2009-02-10T15:32:57Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > It’s worse than that. I haven’t seen this in the news yet over here. I scanned the Denver Post this morning - didn’t see a mention. I did a search over on CNN - no mention. No mention on any major news site that I could find, other than the London Times and The Huffington Post. > > So, the media over here hasn’t even started reporting this new “sensational” story, which means many people won’t hear of it. > > Although there’s already a discussion thread over on the [Mothering.com](http://Mothering.com) boards, in which they’re saying they don’t care, or that Wakefield’s the victim of a witch hunt, etc… It’s starting to get attention here. [L.A.Times](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009/02/british-doctor.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/65 "2009-02-10T16:09:46Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > My uinderstanding was that he was getting funding from a lawyers group who were hired by parents to sue vaccine manufactures for damages. He was trying to ‘prove’ the link to bolster the damages claim. I don’t doubt this, but can someone show a citation I can use to persuade others of this? Edit: specifically, that he is _known_ to have been colluding with lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/66 "2009-02-10T16:16:01Z")
From the LA Times article posted above: > [@](#): > > Moreover, Deer reported, Wakefield was retained as an expert witness two years earlier by a lawyer planning to sue vaccine manufacturers on behalf of parents who thought MMR caused their children’s problems. The parents cited in the Lancet article came to Wakefield’s clinic in response to an advertising campaign led by the lawyer’s group, called Jabs, and not for routine screening, Deer’s report said. Not sure if that’s sufficient, but from what I understand Deer’s report is fairly thorough. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/67 "2009-02-10T17:17:34Z")
Brian Deer’s [website](http://briandeer.com/wakefield-deer.htm) has all of the Wakefield dirty laundry in exhaustive detail. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/68 "2009-02-10T22:46:16Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It’s starting to get attention here. > > [L.A.Times](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009/02/british-doctor.html) I still can’t find it on CNN, or on the website of any other major news outlet. The American media silence on this astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/69 "2009-02-10T23:31:36Z")
Possibly they aren’t jumping on it because the story is a year old. Jackmannii first posted about this in January of 2008. It isn’t a breaking story. Its a story that has been unfolding for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/70 "2009-02-11T00:19:03Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I brought this very point up last night, frothing at the mouth that Oprah (who, as much as we might not like to admit, has a HUGE pulpit at her disposal) probably won’t even mention this. I said “is she going to bring Brian Deer and Jenny McCarthy on and let them duke it out? OF COURSE NOT.” > > After the SO peeled me off the ceiling, he suggested I contact Oprah and demand that she discuss these new revelations on her show. I’m seriously thinking about doing that. Thoughts? Careful, [her minge is armed and dangerous.](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yEz8hh_As84/SFnIwIwzQRI/AAAAAAAAAB4/JN1TmPsB2cg/s320/Picture%2B2.png) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/71 "2009-02-11T00:25:28Z")
Wakefield will continue to say there is a link (see above). Those already against the MMR will continue to be so, and will dismiss criticism of him as being slurs perpetuated by the medical and pharmalogical establishment. These conspiracy things are about trust, and the anti MMR crowd already distrust precisely those people who are now pointing out that Wakefield is a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/72 "2009-02-11T00:30:52Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Possibly they aren’t jumping on it because the story is a year old. Jackmannii first posted about this in January of 2008. It isn’t a breaking story. Its a story that has been unfolding for a year. The revelations about alleged data manipulation/invention are new, and that’s why the story is back in the news. [A timeline](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/in-the-dock-the-man-who-caused-the-great-mmr-scare-482050.html): - FEBRUARY 1998: Andrew Wakefield’s paper is published in The Lancet, linking the MMR triple vaccine with autism - 2000: Demand for single vaccines rises - JANUARY 2001: The Government rejects calls for a single measles vaccine on the NHS - 2001: MMR vaccinations fall to 84.2 per cent of children, down from 92 per cent in 1996 - EARLY 2003: Immunisation rates reach low of 78.9 per cent - NOVEMBER 2003: Dr Simon Murch says there is “unequivocal evidence that MMR is not a risk factor for autism” - 2004: It emerges that while preparing his Lancet paper, Dr Wakefield was being paid by lawyers for parents of children allegedly damaged by MMR - 2004: Immunisation rates rise to 81 per cent - 2004: Number of cases of mumps: 16,436, up from 4,204 the previous year. In 2005 the number is up to 56,390 - MID-2005: Immunisation rates rise to 85 per cent - OCTOBER 2005: Cochrane Library says there is no credible evidence that MMR harms - APRIL 2006: A boy, 13, who had not received the MMR vaccine, becomes the first person to die of measles in 14 years\* Add to this the revelation in early 2007 that Wakefield was actually paid over 400,000 pounds by lawyers before his study was published (part of 3.4 million pounds paid out of a legal aid fund to physicians and scientists recruited to support a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers). At some point during the scandal, most of Wakefield’s co-authors backed away from his MMR paper). So the repercussions continue today, including the dangers to children from lowered immunization rates. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/73 "2009-02-11T18:16:39Z")
The revelations are new - the suspicions aren’t. Its hard for the media to get worked up over a story that takes years to unfold - their (and our) little attention spans have been shortened by too much Spongebob. I would like to see this get more media attention, but it has to come out as a sensationalistic book - along with how much government money we’ve wasted trying to reproduce falsified results and how many kids have died of measles because parents have been trying to avoid autism that isn’t cause by vaccines. This sort of dribbling information to the media isn’t going to get anyone on Oprah. I dislike anti-vaxers as much as the next Doper, but this is not a sexy story as it is currently written. (I have a few friends who are unfortunately anti-vaxers - I just refuse to discuss it with them). ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/74 "2009-02-11T20:47:38Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > (snip) > > - FEBRUARY 1998: Andrew Wakefield’s paper is published in The Lancet, linking the MMR triple vaccine with autism > > - APRIL 2006: A boy, 13, who had not received the MMR vaccine, becomes the first person to die of measles in 14 years\* > > . I agree that Wakefield should be held responsible for much, however, since the child cited here was already about 5 years old when Wakefield’s paper got published I’d rather not hold him accountable for this, but the parents who’d apparently already decided against the MMR. (I’m absolutely **pro** vaccine) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/75 "2009-02-11T22:01:02Z")
> [@wring](#): > > I agree that Wakefield should be held responsible for much, however, since the child cited here was already about 5 years old when Wakefield’s paper got published I’d rather not hold him accountable for this, but the parents who’d apparently already decided against the MMR. Based on vaccination schedules in the U.K., five years old is not too late to get the MMR. _“It (the MMR) is given to a child at around 13 months of age after the immunity the baby got from their mother fades. It is given again when children are aged between three and five.”_ [Link](http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Vaccines/MMR/The_vaccine). So whether it was due to Wakefield, other antivax scaremongering or some unknown factor, this child did not get vaccinated and subsequently died of a vaccine-preventable disease. By the way, it appears Wakefield got the Keith Olbermann “Worst Person In The World” award for 2/10. I’ll have to see if I can locate a video link. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/76 "2009-02-11T22:15:14Z")
So? Most folks get their kids immunized way before age 5. And if you want to claim that this kid dying is a direct result of Wakefields paper, you should be able to prove that these specific parents were unable to give their kid the vacine until age 5, then saw the paper. I think it’s far more likely that the specifica parents involved were of the small group of anti vaccine folks **prior** to Wakefield. Don’t get me wrong, the guy has lots to answer for in my book. Just not the specific kids death. That was more likely to do w/the parents ignorance. > [@](#): > > So whether it was due to Wakefield, other antivax scaremongering or some unknown factor, this child did not get vaccinated and subsequently died of a vaccine-preventable disease. But if it’s not specifically due to Wakefield, shouldn’t be part of the list. The list is damning enough w/o it. I saw Olbermann last night and yes, Wakefield was Worst. And, of course, Keith, being Keith didn’t do his trademark smiling while I’m saying it “Worst person in the world” that he does when its O’Reilly, but rather his “serious and I’m disgusted by this person” voice. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/77 "2009-02-12T03:01:01Z")
I dug up the [video](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#29128976). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/78 "2009-02-12T03:40:47Z")
> [@wring](#): > > So? Most folks get their kids immunized way before age 5. And if you want to claim that this kid dying is a direct result of Wakefields paper, you should be able to prove that these specific parents were unable to give their kid the vacine until age 5, then saw the paper. I did not claim that this child’s death was “a direct result of Wakefield”. Try reading my last post again. What the scare traceable to his flawed if not fraudulent paper arguably _did_ lead to were dropping immunization rates and the resurgence of measles in Britain. It’s impossible to lay specific cases of illness and death at any one person’s door. There are numerous antivax advocates, poorly informed parents, credulous/sensationalistic news media and even a few foolish, enabling physicians to share the blame. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/79 "2009-02-12T03:41:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s the problem with you basically nice people, dear. When faced with a person who obviously needs killing, you can’t quit make yourself say “Hmm. This person needs to be shot in the knees and then fed alive to pigs,” even though that is obviously the case. I’ll take a shot at it. He should be hanged until he passes out. Then he should be drawn, disemboweled, his intestines ripped out and burned while he is made to watch, quartered, and his quarters sent to the four corners of the earth, to be buried in unconsecrated ground, to finally be dug up and eaten by vultures. How’s that 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920/80 "2009-02-12T03:59:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’ll take a shot at it. > > He should be hanged until he passes out. Then he should be drawn, disemboweled, his intestines ripped out and burned while he is made to watch, quartered, and his quarters sent to the four corners of the earth, to be buried in unconsecrated ground, to finally be dug up and eaten by vultures. > How’s that 😃 One question: Is Bernie Madoff and his ilk next? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mmr-all-a-lie-damn-you-dr-wakefield-mild/484920.md?page=5)