# Mod Miller, the Pit, warnings, and trolling **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 23, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480 "2016-12-23T21:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/1 "2016-12-23T21:20:50Z")
Greetings Sith Mod Moderator **Miller** , Well here we are all thithered together. So what’s all this about? You issued a warning for altering posts to change their meaning. While I definately shortened posts, and publically declared that I had shortened the post as I have been doing for years, I did not change the meaning of the posts. The posts in question were clearly intended to be insulting. The entire posts were one long insult. Many of the posts in that thread were to deliberately annoy someone. I quoted the pertinent parts that I would be addressing. The original posts were still available for anyone to peruse at their leisure. As I did not change the meaning of the quotes, I see no reason a warning should have been warranted. IMHO, of course. As always, it’s your circus, and your monkeys. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19871073&postcount=179](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19871073&postcount=179) This is probably as good a time as any other to address the other issue in that Pit thread. That would be your interpretation of the rule regarding Trolling (or No Trolling) in the BBQ Pit. Maybe a clarification is warranted? _For the record, if anyone else is thinking of reporting Clot’s post as “an admission of trolling,” this is precisely why you’re being ignored. It’s the Pit, people. If you’re not posting here to deliberately annoy someone, you’re doing it wrong._ [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19872370&postcount=202](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19872370&postcount=202) vs FAQ - _You are free to express your views in a forceful manner provided you remain civil. Hate speech, insults, and purposely inflammatory remarks (i.e., trolling) will not be tolerated. Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm. We recognize that this rule cannot be strictly applied in discussions of war, capital punishment and the like but urge users to express themselves in moderate terms nonetheless. If we tell you to refrain from behavior that we regard as uncivil, do so or face revocation of your posting privileges._ [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/faq.php?faq=vb3\_board\_faq#faq\_vb3\_board\_usage](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_vb3_board_usage) and \*Q: What should I do when I see someone “trolling” on the SDMB? A: Do NOT publicly accuse another poster of trolling. (The only exception to this is in the forum called BBQ Pit where it is permissible to use the term “troll” as an insult.) Accusations of trolling and similar misconduct are subject to staff discussion and a review of the poster’s history. Trolling is an especially contentious issue, as it is inherently open to interpretation; “stupid” or naive beliefs can often be sincerely held. These discussions are private and disclosed only when actionable offenses are found; we do not want posters to feel persecuted. As for the correct procedure, we prefer that you either report the post in question or PM a moderator with your perspective and cites. This is then forwarded to the mod loop. Please note that a short, coherent and well-cited PM is the best way to get your point across; we usually analyze just the facts and leave the poster’s analysis/opinion out of the discussion. Please note that while the moderators can appear unresponsive to inquiries, that’s because moderator discussions can take days of back and forth. Most topics sent to the moderators are discussed, but occasionally yield no consensus or a decision to take no action. But we’re always watching you!\* > **[FAQ - Rules for Posting at the Straight Dope Message Boards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=384736)** > > This thread lists the Rules for posting on the SDMB. These are the Major Rules and the Important Ones: violations have serious consequences. First, be sure to read the Registration Agreement This post is basically a “table of contents” for this... and \*No trolling By trolling, we mean posting of inflammatory comments solely to get a rise out of people. If we feel your primary goal as a poster is to make people mad, you’ll quickly find yourself on the road to banning. On the flip side, the fact that a poster consistently makes you mad doesn’t automatically make them a troll.\* [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19872790&postcount=215](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19872790&postcount=215) Thank you for your time and consideration. Your confused friend **doorhinge** ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/2 "2016-12-23T21:53:24Z")
I’ll throw in my 2¢. In instance #1, your quoted text read: _I have literally no idea_ … to which you replied with a good deal of snark. What **BPC** actually said was … and I have removed the actual poster names to simply convey the way the phrase was used without propagating further insults here: _I have literally no idea what possible value a poster a blinkered and fucking stupid as [deleted] brings to this board. Similarly, I see little value to be gained from arguing with a pathological liar like [deleted]._ In instance #2, your quoted text read: _I don’t want you to be banned… I want you to be banned…_ What **BPC** actually said was: _I don’t want you to be banned because I don’t like your side. I want you to be banned because [reasons given]._ In both instances IMHO you changed the meaning. In the first instance, by deleting the substance of the post, you made it sound like **BPC** had “no idea” about anything, which you then used to lay on the snark. In the second instance, you made it seem like he was contradicting himself when it’s very clear from the context that he was not, and was making a perfectly coherent statement. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/3 "2016-12-23T22:01:08Z")
I agree with wolfpup there. What you changed pretty clearly did change the meaning of the quote. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/4 "2016-12-23T22:10:50Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > What you changed pretty clearly did change the meaning of the quote. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/5 "2016-12-23T22:19:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’ll throw in my 2¢. > > …In the second instance, you made it seem like he was contradicting himself when it’s very clear from the context that he was not, and was making a perfectly coherent statement. (Post shortened) The poster in question wanted someone to ban posters who he disagrees with. Which would create a safe place for him, I suppose. His reasons are his reasons. He then attempted to clarify the reasons he wanted them banned. He didn’t contradict himself. He was perfectly coherent. The bottom line was that he wants people banned at his discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/6 "2016-12-23T22:21:05Z")
On a slightly different note, there were questions there about whether trolling was banned by SDMB rules. I have been under the impression that it was permitted (if not admired) in the Pit, although nowhere else. Is this correct? (I could cite several instances of a Moderator accusing Pit posters of trolling…without doing so in the context of moderation, only as another poster.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/7 "2016-12-23T22:27:38Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I agree with wolfpup there. What you changed pretty clearly did change the meaning of the quote. > [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I agree. Yes, it’s obvious that doorhinge changed the meaning. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/8 "2016-12-23T22:29:05Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’ll throw in my 2¢. > > In instance #1, your quoted text read: > _I have literally no idea_ > … to which you replied with a good deal of snark. (post shortened) Snark? In a BBQ Pit thread? The thread is filled with snark. And insults, plus a few digs, and innuendos. His post was intended as an insult. I didn’t change the meaning of the post. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/9 "2016-12-23T22:37:04Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I agree with wolfpup there. What you changed pretty clearly did change the meaning of the quote. You’re obviously not following **doorhinge** ’s unique logic here. The quotes were insulting before he “shortened” them, and they were insulting afterward, so therefore the meaning wasn’t changed! It’s true that a completely different person was being insulted in each version, but that’s a trivial, picayune distinction. Insult = insult, just like x = x in math. Get it? I hope this clarifies things. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/10 "2016-12-23T22:38:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Snark? In a BBQ Pit thread? The thread is filled with snark. And insults, plus a few digs, and innuendos. His post was intended as an insult. I didn’t change the meaning of the post. Yes, you absolutely did change the meaning of both posts. I really can’t imagine how you could possibly think otherwise. > [@Trinopus](#): > > On a slightly different note, there were questions there about whether trolling was banned by SDMB rules. I have been under the impression that it was permitted (if not admired) in the Pit, although nowhere else. Is this correct? Let’s say that there is much more tolerance of trolling (as there is of insults) in the Pit. People have, however, been banned for trolling, even in the Pit (although usually there are additional circumstances such as hate speech). ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/11 "2016-12-23T22:48:43Z")
We’ve beaten the quote horse beyond dead. Miller was spot on in interpreting the rule and applying it. What Ed says about this… \*Quoting: do not alter words within quote tags beyond fair usage standards Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so. To add non-editorial explanatory material, use square brackets, which means things like [sic] or replacing a pronoun to make a partial quote clearer. If you add formatting for emphasis, please indicate you’ve done so, either in square brackets within the quote or immediately after the quote. Quote tags are for actual quotes only - don’t use them to paraphrase another’s argument or make a joke. \* ETA, that is from the Pit too. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/12 "2016-12-23T22:54:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Snark? In a BBQ Pit thread? The thread is filled with snark. And insults, plus a few digs, and innuendos. His post was intended as an insult. I didn’t change the meaning of the post. Yes you did. You very obviously did. Miller was spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/13 "2016-12-23T23:02:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > On a slightly different note, there were questions there about whether trolling was banned by SDMB rules. I have been under the impression that it was permitted (if not admired) in the Pit, although nowhere else. Is this correct? Used to be outright trolling wasn’t allowed anywhere. ISTM, Pit mods after **Lynn** grew tired of having to distinguish good-natured ribbing from outright trolling and said “fuck this.” So now we have a safe haven to troll. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/14 "2016-12-23T23:17:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > We’ve beaten the quote horse beyond dead. Miller was spot on in interpreting the rule and applying it. > > What Ed says about this… > > \*Quoting: do not alter words within quote tags beyond fair usage standards > > Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so. To add non-editorial explanatory material, use square brackets, which means things like [sic] or replacing a pronoun to make a partial quote clearer. If you add formatting for emphasis, please indicate you’ve done so, either in square brackets within the quote or immediately after the quote. Quote tags are for actual quotes only - don’t use them to paraphrase another’s argument or make a joke. \* > > ETA, that is from the Pit too. “use either ellipses or descriptive tags to indicate you’ve done so.” (post shortened) seems to qualify as a descriptive tag. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/15 "2016-12-23T23:19:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Snark? In a BBQ Pit thread? The thread is filled with snark. And insults, plus a few digs, and innuendos. His post was intended as an insult. I didn’t change the meaning of the post. Yes, you did. I agree with everyone else. **Miller** was right to give you a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/16 "2016-12-23T23:20:42Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > . . . Let’s say that there is much more tolerance of trolling (as there is of insults) in the Pit. People have, however, been banned for trolling, even in the Pit (although usually there are additional circumstances such as hate speech). I reckon this is why it’s a BBQ Pit, and not a Cess Pit. And…thank goodness! I’ve seen Cess Pit forums (not in the SDMB) and they really aren’t any fun. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/17 "2016-12-23T23:23:33Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > You’re obviously not following **doorhinge** ’s unique logic here. > > The quotes were insulting before he “shortened” them, and they were insulting afterward, so therefore the meaning wasn’t changed! It’s true that a completely different person was being insulted in each version, but that’s a trivial, picayune distinction. Insult = insult, just like x = x in math. Get it? > > I hope this clarifies things. 😃 Eggs-actly. The quoted Pit posts were insulting when they were posted, and they were still insulting after I shortened them. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/18 "2016-12-23T23:24:02Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “use either ellipses or descriptive tags to indicate you’ve done so.” > > (post shortened) seems to qualify as a descriptive tag. YMMV. Irrelevant, since your edits changed the meaning. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/19 "2016-12-23T23:29:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Eggs-actly. The quoted Pit posts were insulting when they were posted, and they were still insulting after I shortened them. Wow. Really? That really is your reasoning? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480/20 "2016-12-23T23:32:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “use either ellipses or descriptive tags to indicate you’ve done so.” > > (post shortened) seems to qualify as a descriptive tag. YMMV. And so it does. Allow me, then, following your interpretation of the rules, to summarize your OP: \*You issued a warning … to deliberately annoy … your monkeys … \* (post shortened) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mod-miller-the-pit-warnings-and-trolling/775480.md?page=2)