# Moderate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 18, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779 "2014-09-18T00:11:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/21 "2014-09-18T12:45:05Z")
Weird double click double post result. Edited post follows.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/22 "2014-09-18T12:46:22Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#):
>
> I could very well sympathize with his probable intent and frustration on how the world seems love choosing sides. My problem with the OP is that he is using the same language as those who want to divide.
I don’t think he’d be doing that if this wasn’t the Pit, and I assume he intended the irony.
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### Author:  [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/23 "2014-09-18T12:49:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> I don’t think he’d be doing that if this wasn’t the Pit, and it’s probably intended to be ironic.
Believe me, I know. I’m cutting him a lot of slack. It’s just that, well, it’s a bad way to think and I have to call him on it.
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### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/24 "2014-09-18T12:57:39Z")
“The worst things in the world are justified by belief”
- U2, _Raised by Wolves_
Sadly, the people who rail hardest about other people doing wrong because of their beliefs, have their own set of beliefs that allow them to do wrong.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/25 "2014-09-18T13:12:45Z")
In my head, I’m singing the Simpsons monorail song only with moderate instead.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/26 "2014-09-18T13:53:38Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#):
>
> Do you realize what your rant is saying? You are saying that there can be no middle ground.
I don’t realize that because it’s not true. Of course there is a middle ground between extremes. Lots of middle ground. But “moderate” doesn’t tell you where in the middle that ground is. It’s either a lazy way of ignoring important details\*, or a deliberate attempt to brush over those details. When I hear someone talk about the “moderate” Syrian rebels, I can’t help but think that they want us to hear “secular”, which they are not.
\*Yeah, I know that’s not exactly unusual, but it still bugs me
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### Author:  [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/27 "2014-09-18T14:14:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> I don’t realize that because it’s not true. Of course there is a middle ground between extremes. Lots of middle ground. But “moderate” doesn’t tell you where in the middle that ground is. It’s either a lazy way of ignoring important details\*, or a deliberate attempt to brush over those details. When I hear someone talk about the “moderate” Syrian rebels, I can’t help but think that they want us to hear “secular”, which they are not.
>
> \*Yeah, I know that’s not exactly unusual, but it still bugs me
What about “moderate” Republicans? Do you deny they exist? Are you pissed at them? That’s what you led with in your OP.
I am a self describe moderate Democrat. Are you pissed at me? Or are you, as I suspect, just feeling like throwing your shoe at the television?
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### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/28 "2014-09-18T14:26:40Z")
ISTM that there are two separate issues being conflated here.
[ol]
[li]The notion that the term “moderate” should mean “what John Mace (or whoever) thinks is reasonable”, rather than a descriptor of where their position is on the spectrum that actually exists in the real world.[/li][li]The notion that some people who are being described as “moderate” are not moderate by either definition above, and are simply pretending to be what they’re not for PR purposes.[/li][/ol]
I agree with the second but not with the first.
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### Author:  [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/29 "2014-09-18T14:41:58Z")
[deleted
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/30 "2014-09-18T16:47:53Z")
Personally, I think if you are at war, you are already well past moderation and into extremism. The best anyone on the outside can hope is that you will return to moderation after you kill enough of the other side to take over.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/31 "2014-09-18T16:51:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> What the hell is a “Moderate Republican” these days?
Somebody who wants to shoot illegal aliens, but not eat them.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/32 "2014-09-18T18:16:45Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> I agree with the OP. It may even be an intentional effort by the GOP to highlight their most insane members to make the rest appear moderate.
I don’t know if it’s intentional or not, but the effect is to define the GOP this way to their faithful:
Tea Partiers/John Birchers/Militia Loons: Extreme right wing. Hearts in the right place, too extreme.
RINOs: May as well be Democrats; we don’t claim them, or really want them.
Everyone else: Moderates.
The catch here is that in reality, the RINOs are actually the moderates, but are being vilified for it, and the more conservative middle are called moderates without actually being moderate in any sense of the word, except relative to the rest of the Republicans.
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/33 "2014-09-18T18:18:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> And the all-time-fucking-worst one: “Moderate rebels”, as in the folks in Syria. Not to worry America, we’re only arming the “moderate rebels”. What does that mean-- they only behead people one day of the month?
Well, one of those “moderate rebels” was on youtube eating the heart of the government soldier. So I guess he was “moderate” because he didn’t go for the brains?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/34 "2014-09-18T18:22:34Z")
Well, that certainly settles _that!_
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/35 "2014-09-18T18:28:56Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> I don’t know if it’s intentional or not, but the effect is to define the GOP this way to their faithful:
>
> Tea Partiers/John Birchers/Militia Loons: Extreme right wing. Hearts in the right place, too extreme.
>
> RINOs: May as well be Democrats; we don’t claim them, or really want them.
>
> Everyone else: Moderates.
>
> The catch here is that in reality, the RINOs are actually the moderates, but are being vilified for it, and the more conservative middle are called moderates without actually being moderate in any sense of the word, except relative to the rest of the Republicans.
Yes, that’s it. I do think the GOP pushes toward the right very hard to get this effect. They seem to be reaching the edge of the cliff, but much of the damage is done already. When I was a kid back in the dark ages you’d often hear that you couldn’t explain the difference between the Democratic and Repulican parties to someone from another country. Back then the parties were controlled by each of their real moderates. Even now most of the country is probably closer to the middle than the extremes, but that’s not reflected in their representatives.
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### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/36 "2014-09-18T18:33:22Z")
Hallucinate
Desegregate
Mediate
Alleviate
Try not to hate
Love your own mate
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/37 "2014-09-18T19:12:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> ISTM that there are two separate issues being conflated here.
>
> [ol]
> [li]The notion that the term “moderate” should mean “what John Mace (or whoever) thinks is reasonable”, rather than a descriptor of where their position is on the spectrum that actually exists in the real world.[/li][li]The notion that some people who are being described as “moderate” are not moderate by either definition above, and are simply pretending to be what they’re not for PR purposes.[/li][/ol]
> I agree with the second but not with the first.
No, you’re wrong about #1. As I’ve already said, I think one of the problems with “moderate” is that it actually doesn’t mean anything at all (moderate _compared to what_) but is being used as if everyone knows precisely what it means.
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### Author:  [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/38 "2014-09-18T19:31:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> No, you’re wrong about #1. As I’ve already said, I think one of the problems with “moderate” is that it actually doesn’t mean anything at all (moderate _compared to what_) but is being used as if everyone knows precisely what it means.
What it means is apparent from context.
In the case of Syrian rebels, it means they’re moderate compared to the other Syrian rebels. In the case of Republicans, it means compared to other Republicans.
A lot of people don’t know what the deal is with moderate Syrian rebels, but that’s because a lot of people don’t follow that situation all that closely (or are in denial, as you can see from a lot of threads here). I don’t think the problem is the word “moderate” per se.
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### Author:  [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)
#### Post date: [September 18, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/39 "2014-09-18T21:02:43Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> I don’t know if it’s intentional or not, but the effect is to define the GOP this way to their faithful:
>
> Tea Partiers/John Birchers/Militia Loons: Extreme right wing. Hearts in the right place, too extreme.
>
> RINOs: May as well be Democrats; we don’t claim them, or really want them.
>
> Everyone else: Moderates.
>
> The catch here is that in reality, the RINOs are actually the moderates, but are being vilified for it, and the more conservative middle are called moderates without actually being moderate in any sense of the word, except relative to the rest of the Republicans.
But, here’s the problem - they GOP would like there to be such a stratification, but in reality it does not exist - they all vote in lockstep as if they are being lead around by the nose by the vocal minority of the party. Anyone left of the Tea Party is labeled “moderate”, but they they are all consistent in their positions. They are MINOs.
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### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [September 19, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderate/698779/40 "2014-09-19T05:05:26Z")
What do you have against moderates John? You must be an extremist. Arming the moderates is sort of like systematic pressure, targets of opportunity, or [surgical strikes](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/what-vietnam-era-failures-can-teach-us-about-the-war-on-terrorism/263066/): they make the less homicidally inclined appear unreasonable.
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