# Moderation approves personal harassment by silence **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 11, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870 "2018-06-11T13:49:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/282 "2018-06-13T00:07:53Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > Please read what I wrote. …I read what you wrote. > [@](#): > > We made a mistake in not closing the thread right off the bat. ATMB is not the place for arguments between posters. As for “attacks” - what do you mean by attack? People criticize each other all the time on this board in many forums. Do they really? If I were to say “Ed Zotti is not normal” in Great Debates I’m pretty sure I’d get modded for that. The same for in IMHO, or Cafe Society. We criticise opinions. “Attack the post, not the poster.” And we criticise actions. “What you wrote is not normal.” But I would have thought that calling another poster “not normal” was behaviour that was reserved for the pit. It seems to me that the person who “wrote or approved virtually all the rules we have” seems to be a bit out of touch with how the rest of the board is moderated, but hey I could be wrong, and I welcome your clarification. > [@](#): > > In your view does this constitute an attack? Do you think we do, or should, have a rule against this? Why are you asking me that question? The question was directed to the person who “wrote or approved virtually all the rules we have” on this site. It was a request for clarification. It should be freaking obvious that I considered essentially calling another poster “not normal” is an attack. And with the added context of these particular posts in this very thread: > [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’d like to be the [del]first[/del]third to wish you well in your new life. Bye. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Apparently you have been traumatized by this off board troupe of evil alien mind control experts. I really feel your pain here. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Mom they were mean to me in the pit? Come on, it’s the pit. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Let me help you here a bit. > **For rants about the world or beefs with another poster.** - from the first page, you know the purpose of the pit… > > That’s what the pit is for. He does it again, commenting to me while pointing out that he has me on ignore and can’t see what I say. He’ll probably get kicked in the nuts again. It’s the pit. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > If I do, will he still flounce? > [@Morgenstern](#): > > **Chimera** , seriously, a little word of advice. You mention that your _“repeated”_ reports to mods were ignored. (I think that means more than one) You mentioned that your PM was dismissed. Then you post your dissatisfaction in ATMB for the world to see. You know what you really did here? You’ve just told everyone where your BIG button is. Most people won’t push it, but they will all be there, in the pit, watching, waiting, wondering if someone will. The air will be thick with suspense. > > Bad move on your part. IMHO. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re buying in the hysteria with your life savings. Let’s look at what really happened. I let LHoD hijack this thread because it was funny. Let’s set it straight. > > Why would I think Chimera was -------". Many reasons, mostly from his posts. They mostly have major anger issues. He’s offered to “beat up people” (figuratively) by being a warrior for women in the pit. See Sunny’s thread. > > And see this gem. > \*…I’m just an average middle aged white guy, but I’d say that at least once or thrice a year someone, usually a woman, will make some stupid comment about how I look creepy or I make them nervous just by going about my business. Usually I blow it off, but if I’m suffering a bout of anxiety or depression (yesterday was a very bad day), then that sort of stuff hits harder, gets really offensive and I react. > > Hell, 30 years ago I rode up the elevator in our company parking ramp, my employee badge clearly visible on my shirt and yet some fucking idiot woman cowered in the back of the elevator staring at me with her mace in her hand. I was young and very angry about this and if she had maced me for no reason but her fear,\*\* I’d have likely beaten her within an inch of her life\*\*, but I stood there, on the other side of the elevator, kept my face looking neutral and at the door…\* > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20950070&postcount=614](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20950070&postcount=614) > > color mine. That was from last month on the dope, last month. > > Look at what he said. \*\* Beaten her within an inch of her life. \*\* You know what we call in CA… attempted murder. Guy is touting that he let a woman, cowering in fear from him, bother him so much that he carried these thoughts of his possibly attempting to murdering her for **30 fucking years**. I’m not a professional here , certainly no psych, but this ain’t normal. Normal men don’t have thoughts about beating women within an inch of their life. See, he’s one of the people here who has earned my lack of trust in what he posts. > > So anyway, IF he returns, In the proper forum, at the proper time, I’ll ask him about his desire to murder this woman, and we’ll all make our own little lay minds up abourt his sanity. We don’t need a doctor or a report. He will give us all we need. > > That, and it’s hard to see someone with this much anger as a victim that a woman cowering in the corner scared him so much ha had to consider murdering her if she moved the wrong way. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Because it’s the pit. shit happens there. As you well know. It’s a fair place to ask someone to explain what they meant by beating someone to an inch of their life. > > It wouldn’t be fair to hijack someone’s thread with it, but when Chimera mentions violence or women issues again, it’s fair to ask him to explain. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’m sure there will be Chimera rule. But I’m expecting that someone threatening to beat a woman to near death will be an exception to that rule in the pit. Sort of dilutes your claim when it appears people reap what they sow. In the fucking PIT. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Maybe to you this is perfectly normal… > _fucking idiot woman cowered in the back of the elevator staring at me with her mace in her hand. I was young and very angry about this and if she had maced me for no reason but her fear, I’d have likely beaten her within an inch of her life_ > > …to me, not so much. I’ve never had such a thought, have you? In the context of Morgenstern’s posts in this thread: do you still not see characterizing Chimera as “not normal” as innocent, and not an attack? I don’t see the problem in this thread as “arguments between posters” but with one particular poster using this thread to continue to bully and harass the OP, other posters pushing back against that poster, and the moderating team (including the person who wrote or approved virtually all the rules we have here) allowing it to happen. Imagine taking a complaint to Human Resources about sexual harassment and allowing the accused to sit there and say “but yeah, she was a fucking bitch, and she deserved everything I said”, then when other people in the meeting pushed back Human Resources simply said “our mistake was allowing people to argue.” This is incredibly tone-deaf. In the era of gamergate and #metoo many places on the internet have come to understand how devastating online harassment and bullying can be. How insidious it is. And in the wake of things like gamergate it became obvious how people were “gaming the rules” to try and pretend that what they were doing was “innocent” when in reality they are not. So do I think that Morgenstern is attacking Chimera here in this thread? Of course I do. And he isn’t even trying to hide it. As the person who “wrote or approved virtually all the rules we have” you set the tone of this place, you decide what is and isn’t acceptable here so you take ownership of that and don’t put the responsibility back on me. If you don’t think that Morgenstern has been attacking Chimera throughout this thread then say that. Make it clear that you consider Morgenstern’s behaviour in this thread is acceptable outside of the pit, and the problem wasn’t the content of his posts, but the fact he was “arguing.” As I said before you need to consider the chilling effect of not moderating this behaviour. I applaud the efforts of the moderating team to cut back on the misogyny here. But misogyny is not the only problem. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/283 "2018-06-13T00:12:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 😕 > > “Trolling” doesn’t mean “makes lousy arguments with snark, even though I disagree with them.” It gets used that way far too often around here, but that’s not its meaning. > > I looked at most of the posts you linked to–there’s nothing there that looks remotely trollish to me. He makes poor argument A People get riled and It is refuted several times by other knowledgeable posters He restated the exact same argument People get riled and it gets refuted He makes lots of inflamitory remarks and some other posters catch onto what he is doing He is a smart guy and doesn’t usually post in the manner he did on that thread and he made no effort to respond to posts by the likes of Ravenman and a couple of others who are knowledgeable about the law but almost always responds to Octopus and other conservative posters he knows are not popular. You could be right of course and I am reading it all wrong. But I have my doubts. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/284 "2018-06-13T00:16:55Z")
I forgot to mention that he has confessed to occasionally posting to ‘rile up the Derps on the Dope’. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/285 "2018-06-13T00:20:09Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I forgot to mention that he has confessed to occasionally posting to ‘rile up the Derps on the Dope’. While you’re digging, cold you dig up a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/286 "2018-06-13T00:28:55Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > He makes poor argument A > > People get riled and It is refuted several times by other knowledgeable posters > > He restated the exact same argument That’s not trolling at all, though. “Refuted” and “disputed” end the same, but they’re two very different things\*, and just because someone disputed his arguments and he repeated them doesn’t mean he was trolling. I have problems with specific behavior on his part, but this isn’t an example of it. - FWIW, “refute” is what I do to your arguments; “dispute” is what you do to mine. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/287 "2018-06-13T00:48:03Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Yep, I did some gross stuff while I was there. Encouraged by the general environment of the board, but still definitely gross. Good riddance to the whole thing. I think this is bullshit. I post at GB somewhat, admittedly mostly in the Megapoll forum. I don’t conspire to attack other posters at any boards. You cannot blame the environment of the board for acting like an ass. If you acted like an ass, you chose to act like an ass. \*\*Morgenstern \*\*needs no help or pushing to act dickish in the pit. He did such all on his own. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/288 "2018-06-13T00:55:27Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > While you’re digging, cold you dig up a cite for that? You know the answer to that one, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/289 "2018-06-13T00:58:19Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You know the answer to that one, don’t you? Yes, you have nothing. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/290 "2018-06-13T01:00:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not trolling at all, though. “Refuted” and “disputed” end the same, but they’re two very different things\*, and just because someone disputed his arguments and he repeated them doesn’t mean he was trolling. > > I have problems with specific behavior on his part, but this isn’t an example of it. > > - FWIW, “refute” is what I do to your arguments; “dispute” is what you do to mine. I was trying to use the definition Ed posted in 244. Posting what we don’t believe to rile up others. I thought Morganstern did a brilliant job of just that in the CalExit thread. Ill accept that I didn’t make my case persuasive enough. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/291 "2018-06-13T01:01:33Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Yes, you have nothing. So you are encouraging me to ignore mod instructions? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/292 "2018-06-13T01:04:07Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I was trying to use the definition Ed posted in 244. Posting what we don’t believe to rile up others. I thought Morganstern did a brilliant job of just that in the CalExit thread. Ill accept that I didn’t make my case persuasive enough. Broomstick’s HR analogy was spot in in so many ways. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/293 "2018-06-13T02:15:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It has been noted by several people (including me) that Morgenstern has been targeting Chimera. As part of the mod loop discussion, I went back through the last three months of **Morgenstern** ’s Pit posts by hand, looking for posts where he interacted with **Chimera**. I also did a search on his Pit posts, using his user name, and “chimera” as the search criteria, and no defined time frame. I found four threads where they interacted. Almost all of the insulting posts are in the original “Skald the Rhymer is annoying” pit thread and the “Male-Centrism on the Dope” spin-off. There’s two posts in the “Troll Omnibus” thread, and one other post from February where they cordially gang up on **octopus**. That’s not really showing me a pattern of harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/294 "2018-06-13T02:28:05Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The internet in general and this board in particular has always been this way. Sure–but this isn’t like saying that the Pacific Northwest has always been rainy in the winter, it’s like saying that frats have always been full of underage drinking. This board has always had people who will weaponize personal trauma because this board allows people to weaponize personal trauma. It’s a decision. It looks like, for now at least, the mods and admins think the cure of telling people to knock that shit off is worse than the disease of having folks attacked with the worst moments of their lives. I find that decision bewildering, and I hope that it changes–that they can figure out a way to tell people to knock that shit off. I don’t want anyone to think that because the board has always been that way, it can’t change. Of course it can. It’s undergone other changes in the past, to the board’s benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/295 "2018-06-13T02:38:24Z")
The only and last thing I will add is that we do have rules against harrasment and if anyone sees harrasment to please report it. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/296 "2018-06-13T02:44:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The only and last thing I will add is that we do have rules against harrasment and if anyone sees harrasment to please report it. Honest question - at what point does it become harassment? Miller found four threads in which **Morgenstern** brought up unrelated information about Chimera’s divorce and used it to attack him (and now five including this one). There were multiple posts about it in each thread, so the post count is higher. This was deemed to not be harassment. So what’s the limit? I know you don’t want a bright-line definition, but we need some kind of guideline if you ask us to report it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/297 "2018-06-13T02:53:31Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Honest question - at what point does it become harassment? Miller found four threads in which **Morgenstern** brought up unrelated information about Chimera’s divorce and used it to attack him (and now five including this one). There were multiple posts about it in each thread, so the post count is higher. > > This was deemed to not be harassment. So what’s the limit? I know you don’t want a bright-line definition, but we need some kind of guideline if you ask us to report it. I’m not a Mode here obviously but I’d say just report whatever you think is harassment. If enough people report the same posts, there may be a change of mind. The recent Skald in incident is a perfect example of that happening. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/298 "2018-06-13T03:04:09Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Honest question - at what point does it become harassment? Miller found four threads in which **Morgenstern** brought up unrelated information about Chimera’s divorce and used it to attack him (and now five including this one). There were multiple posts about it in each thread, so the post count is higher. > > This was deemed to not be harassment. So what’s the limit? I know you don’t want a bright-line definition, but we need some kind of guideline if you ask us to report it. Given the different nature of the Pit, I’ll let Miller opine if he wishes. For GD and Elections, the standards are different. [Here is how we’ve defined it in those forums:](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=818217) > [@](#): > > Harassing other posters - Bringing up a poster’s history in unrelated threads for the purpose of harassing them is not allowed. Following a poster from thread to thread to mock them about older, off-topic posts could be considered harassment and is potentially sanctionable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/299 "2018-06-13T03:06:58Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > For GD and Elections, the standards are much more elevated. Here is how we’ve defined it in those forums: That definition looks pretty good to me. Pitting me for being an asshole in a thread in IMHO is fine; responding to me in another pit thread by bringing up something unrelated I said in a thread in IMHO is the kind of shit that doesn’t improve the board. I’d love to see the Pit adopt language similar to this. Maybe something like, “Bringing up aspects of a poster’s personal [or off-board, or something] life–aspects they’ve discussed elsewhere–for the purpose of insulting them is not allowed.” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/300 "2018-06-13T03:38:52Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Miller found four threads in which **Morgenstern** brought up unrelated information about Chimera’s divorce and used it to attack him (and now five including this one). That’s not what Miller said. He said they “interacted”. He did not say what they interacted about. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870/301 "2018-06-13T03:39:34Z")
Argh, I just spent 90 minutes composing a long reply to various remarks which the fricking board software has now vaporized. I’m not about to retype the whole thing, so I’ll just say a couple things before closing this thread: (1) The staff is now aware that a lot of posters think Morgenstern is a jerk. If you see further instances of this, please report them. (2) **Morgenstern** , my advice to you is to dial back on the attitude of moral superiority. We have no specific rule against being a PITA, but we’re getting tired of our inboxes filling up with complaints about you. If in the future we tell you to refrain from certain types of behavior, please do so or face revocation of your posting privileges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-approves-personal-harassment-by-silence/815870.md?page=14)