# moderation of poster that take unpopular positions. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 6, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251 "2016-07-06T19:32:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/1 "2016-07-06T19:32:16Z")
So I am taking an unpopular position on the efficacy of torture on great debates and I got a warning. Here is the moderator instruction: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19457738&postcount=566](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19457738&postcount=566) > [@](#): > > "Moderating > > * * * > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post > u seem to be making the argument that these pussy ass Navy SEALS are going to half ass this part of SERE training because, well, why the fuck not? > > No one has made that argument. > > That is a straw man, bordering on dishonest, and has now moved into the realm of trolling, being posted solely to get a rise out of other posters. > > Stop it. > > [/Moderating] Here is a post (that frankly I posted 5 minutes after the warning and before I saw the moderator instruction) that got me a warning: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19457750&postcount=567](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19457750&postcount=567) > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by tomndebb View Post > Nope. You are choosing to believe that training exercises designed for different purposes than to actually extract information are “facts” while the experiences of people who have conducted actual, successful interrogations are “opinions.” > > You are picking and choosing which opinions you believe. Because there are plenty of people who were involved with the enhanced interrogation program who say it worked. In fact the Director of the CIA (appointed by Clinton) seems to think that it works. So there is no consensus among experts that torture does or doesn’t work unless you only rely on the experts that say torture doesn’t work. > > What SERE training was designed for is only tangentially relevant. The fact of the matter is that torture was applied to pussy ass Navy SEALS and in 100% of those cases, the pussy ass Navy SEAL divulged information that they were told NOT to divulge and those pussy ass Navy SEALS gave up the information within a few minutes of being tortured. > Quote: > Nothing you have repeated ad nauseam about training exercises is actually a “fact” regarding torture. The FBI and Army Intelligence had years of actually interrogating prisoners. Due to the difference in missions, the CIA had almost no such experience. > > Wait, you are saying that the CIA doesn’t have experience interrogating prisoners? Are you fucking kidding me? You think the Central INTELLIGENCE Agency doesn’t do its share of interrogations? You sure you don’t want to revise that statement? Do you think the CIA is more likely to hand a prisoner over to army intelligence for interrogation or the army is more likely to hand a prisoner over to the CIA for interrogation? > > Who do you think had more experience in torture? > Quote: > When matched to the frequent errors and false information that was “discovered” by the CIA or its “rendering” affiliates in other countries through torture, the facts say the torture is not an effective method of interrogation. > > Has there ever been an occasion when torture provided accurate information? Probably. However its high rate of “false positive” results renders even an occasional “success” suspect and not worth pursuing. > > If that’s what we are getting then we are not doing it right. - \*I deleted some stuff at the end that I responded to in a subsequent post. I don’t see how this is a warnable offense especially since what I say is arguably true. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/2 "2016-07-06T19:54:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t see how this is a warnable offense especially since what I say is arguably true. It is true as far as it was an opinion of a CIA man with no experience in SERE. But as the SERE experts and doctors reported, a tool **used out of context** and a point made in a very insulting way also. [http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/michael\_gelles.html](http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/torturingdemocracy/interviews/michael_gelles.html) > [@](#): > > ``` > SERE is training for individuals to be prepared for, should they be captured. This is all done within a school context with the purposes of helping people develop some expectation of what could occur. Now, because they had used that, and had watched the stress, as you would imagine, associated with that in schools, reengineer that to use in interrogations. Absolutely ridiculous. > > ``` > > _Why?_ > > ``` > It's just completely out of context. Those types of tactics were used to prepare people to resist and evade. Now we were going to use them to elicit information? It also was contradictory to all the concepts that helped us understand who the adversary was, and how we could elicit accurate, reliable information. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/3 "2016-07-06T19:58:42Z")
You two will not revisit your argument in this thread. Damuri, Tom didn’t warn you. I did. And I did it for ‘Failure to Follow a Moderator’s Instructions’. Tom told you to knock it off, you didn’t, you got warned. I don’t give a damn about your position on the matter but I do care that you didn’t follow instruction. Continue to do so will result in further sanction. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/4 "2016-07-06T19:59:29Z")
There was also the _very_ repeated use of the term “pussy-assed Navy SEALS” that you were at first asked, then told to knock off, I would guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/5 "2016-07-06T20:02:26Z")
I have successfully avoided that thread until today. It’s not clear to me what Tom was telling Damuri to knock off from his instruction. It’s either the denigrating sarcastic adjectives, or the implication that SEALs wouldn’t give their best effort all the time, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/6 "2016-07-06T20:16:37Z")
It may not be “fair,” but if you’re going to argue an unpopular position here, you must take care to be exceptionally polite, proper, and correct. We will engage in debate with flat-earthers. But rude flat-earthers can go to blazes. The combination of an unpopular viewpoint with rudeness is worse than either pedcadillo, alone, would be. This means that someone arguing an unpopular opinion has to accept rudeness, without descending into its use himself. Again, patently unfair, but it’s a social reality. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/7 "2016-07-06T20:19:14Z")
I agree that tomndeb’s instruction is not clear. Yet another possible reading is to stop straw manning (especially since the pussy ass SEALs line seems clearly ironic to emphasize that they are in fact really tough folks). I think tom often assumes the poster is knowingly doing something wrong or annoying such that “knock it off” is helpful. Often it is not. Here, I’m not sure what aspect of the argument he considers a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/8 "2016-07-06T20:21:43Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > You two will not revisit your argument in this thread. > > Damuri, Tom didn’t warn you. I did. And I did it for ‘Failure to Follow a Moderator’s Instructions’. Tom told you to knock it off, you didn’t, you got warned. I don’t give a damn about your position on the matter but I do care that you didn’t follow instruction. Continue to do so will result in further sanction. Aside from the lack of clarity (which might very well be my inability to understand what was written, I don’t think I’m alone in this though), I hadn’t seen the moderator note when I posted the offending post. I mean there was like a 5 minute gap, I would assert that my offense was inadvertent. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/9 "2016-07-06T20:27:01Z")
The time window is a separate issue, but in that I also think leeway is warranted. The post likely took more than 5 minutes to compose, and given Damuri’s penchant for replying to posts one at a time in sequence, I believe he would not have seen the instruction prior to posting. This is different than instruction given during the course of a thread and not following instruction at a later time and a poster being responsible to read the thread before posting. If Tom posted his mod note and Damuri posted at the same time, it would be hard to argue that the post wasn’t following instruction because none was yet given. At 1 minute, this is likely still true. At 5 minutes, given the history, I think this is still true. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/10 "2016-07-06T20:39:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The time window is a separate issue, but in that I also think leeway is warranted. The post likely took more than 5 minutes to compose, and given Damuri’s penchant for replying to posts one at a time in sequence, I believe he would not have seen the instruction prior to posting. This is different than instruction given during the course of a thread and not following instruction at a later time and a poster being responsible to read the thread before posting. > > If Tom posted his mod note and Damuri posted at the same time, it would be hard to argue that the post wasn’t following instruction because none was yet given. At 1 minute, this is likely still true. At 5 minutes, given the history, I think this is still true. Well I’m appealing on two fronts. A) Ignorance that a moderator note existed. B) Reasonable failure to understand what I was being instructed to refrain from. I didn’t see the moderator note until after I had posted the offending post and I misunderstood the instruction to mean something else when I did. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/11 "2016-07-06T20:45:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The combination of an unpopular viewpoint with rudeness is worse than either pedcadillo, alone, would be. Pedcadillo? Is that a foot fault? (Sorry, I realize it was a typo, just couldn’t resist. :)) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/12 "2016-07-06T21:46:02Z")
Could I suggest it might be unwise for a moderator to act officially in a thead that he or she is participating in? There seems to be an appearance of impropriety there, even if there’s no real impropriety. It looks like, “Well, the other poster has responded to me and I don’t like the answer, so I’m going to use my official moderator powers to declare it a straw man argument and disallow it.” Putting aside the fact that people set up strawmen all the time in GD, it looks bad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/13 "2016-07-06T22:20:33Z")
This is why I am no longer participating in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/14 "2016-07-06T22:36:40Z")
As noted in the other thread, I think Tom’s instruction was - and still is - very unclear. In addition, as CA noted here, the fact that Tom was himself participating in that thread, and that the guy he was moderating was taking a position that he particularly opposed, makes it even more dubious. (Note: the first issue also relates to JC’s warning, while the second is just about Tom.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/15 "2016-07-06T23:24:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well I’m appealing on two fronts. > > A) Ignorance that a moderator note existed. > > B) Reasonable failure to understand what I was being instructed to refrain from. > > I didn’t see the moderator note until after I had posted the offending post and I misunderstood the instruction to mean something else when I did. I think those points deserves consideration by the moderators. However, you lose points for the tortured coding of the quotes in the OP… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/16 "2016-07-06T23:58:51Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Pedcadillo? Is that a foot fault? > > (Sorry, I realize it was a typo, just couldn’t resist. :)) Good pun! (If that is not an oxymoron!) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/17 "2016-07-07T00:06:04Z")
Ok, give him a Note instead of a warning, fine by me. Timing is everything. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/18 "2016-07-07T00:43:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It may not be “fair,” but if you’re going to argue an unpopular position here, you must take care to be exceptionally polite, proper, and correct. > > We will engage in debate with flat-earthers. But rude flat-earthers can go to blazes. The combination of an unpopular viewpoint with rudeness is worse than either pedcadillo, alone, would be. > > This means that someone arguing an unpopular opinion has to accept rudeness, without descending into its use himself. Again, patently unfair, but it’s a social reality. And a reason for this is that people who argue unpopular positions with rudeness raise the suspicion that they are doing so “just to be confrontational or to raise hackles,” which is the [definition of trolling](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1764/what-is-a-troll). I’m not saying that everyone who rudely espouses unpopular positions is a troll. Some are sincere, and either naturally abrasive or made tetchy from having to defend their unpopular opinions. But it is the kind of thing that trolls do. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/19 "2016-07-07T01:26:40Z")
Tom and I have spent some time discussing it and he agrees that he was not clear in his guidance. Because of that, I am reversing the warning for Damuri Ajashi. This does not mean that we wish posters to consider ‘I didn’t understand it so it shouldn’t count’ as an overall viable approach to getting around moderation. Such has a low probability of having a positive outcome and I’d advise against it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251/20 "2016-07-07T05:02:34Z")
Sounds reasonable. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moderation-of-poster-that-take-unpopular-positions/759251.md?page=2)