# Modern Jewish Faith Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 17, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463 "2002-07-17T19:26:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![maybesomeone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@maybesomeone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maybesomeone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/1 "2002-07-17T19:26:53Z")
In the Biblical Old Testament, the people adhered to certain rules and regulations, such as the sacrificing of animals or the high priest wore certain garments. What has changed so that there is no longer the sacrificing of animals or one specific high priest who wears those garments? Also, what happened to the Pharicees and Saducees (spelling?) - are they still around? It seems as though everything else in the Jewish faith has stayed mostly the same (although I admit my ignorance and am not of the Jewish faith). Finally, why were they called Israelites in the old days, but are called Israelis now? Thanks for the info! Scott ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/2 "2002-07-17T19:47:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by maybesomeone \* > \*\*In the Biblical Old Testament, the people adhered to certain rules and regulations, such as the sacrificing of animals or the high priest wore certain garments. What has changed so that there is no longer the sacrificing of animals or one specific high priest who wears those garments? \*\* The lack of the Temple in Jerusalem. Without the Temple (which, coincedentially, Jews will be commemorating the destruction of tonight and tomorrow), sacrifices cannot be brought. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Also, what happened to the Pharicees and Saducees (spelling?) - are they still around? \*\* The Pharisees are still pretty much around. Today’s Jews are the theological heirs of the Pharisees. The Saducees pretty much faded after the destruction of the Temple. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It seems as though everything else in the Jewish faith has stayed mostly the same (although I admit my ignorance and am not of the Jewish faith). Finally, why were they called Israelites in the old days, but are called Israelis now? \*\* Don’t know. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Thanks for the info! > > Scott \*\* You’re welcome. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/3 "2002-07-17T19:55:37Z")
From the bottom up: The Israelites - or “Children of Israel” - were a group of tribes, bound together by a common history, system of faith and occasionally government, who lived in Bronze and Iron-Age times in the land now known as Israel and surrounding areas. The largest and most dominant of these tribes was the Judeans. With time, the other tribes were destroyed, scattered or swallowed up by the Judeans, and from a certain point on the nation became known as the Jews. Israelis, OTOH, are citizens of the state of Israel, which was founded by Jews in 1948. The Pharicees and Saducees were political/religious factions from the early Roman period. They were made more or less obsolete after the destruction of Judea, and what was left of them faded away, as such things tend to do. As to the sacrifices, the clothes and the priests, it’s simple - all these practices require a Temple in Jerusalem, which hasn’t existed since 70 CE. Since most Jews (or at least, the ones who bother with the issue) believe that the Temple can’t be rebuilt until the Messiah comes, you won’t see any of them in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/4 "2002-07-17T19:57:27Z")
IANAJ either, but I can tell you that there is no temple, so there can be no sacrifices and no priesthood. The Pharisees were a party/sect that espoused interpretation of the scriptures to determine right living. After the destruction of the temple, Pharisaic writings and tradition became were carried on by those who became modern rabbis. The Sadducees were a party/sect (mostly priests, if I understand correctly) who espoused strict adherence to the letter of Mosaic law. Outside of that, they were more open to Greek influences, and frequently aligned with foreign rulers. After the destruction of the temple (and the consequent diminishment of the priesthood) the Sadducees faded away. The Jews were never called “Israelites” in the old days: they are called “Israelites” in English translations of Hebrew scriptures. The modern word “Israeli” was coined by modern people rather than ancient translators. How’d I do, Zev et al? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/5 "2002-07-17T20:00:47Z")
In the Bible, “Israel” was another name for Jacob, and “Israelites” were all peoples descended from Jacob. Today, Israel is, first and foremost, a country. An “Israeli” is a citizen of that country. Strictly speaking, a Jew who was born and raised in New Jersey or Florida is an Israelite- he IS descended from Jacob, after all. But until such time as he elects to move to Israel and claim citizenship in that country, he’s not an Israeli. And while a modern Jew is, technically, an Israelite, that’s a rather outdated term that no one uses to describe modern Jews. For a very short period of time, all the descendants of Jacob’s 12 sons lived in one country under one central government. During that time, their country was called Israel. Eventually, the descendants of Jacob’s son Judah split with the descendants of the other sons. Thus, in the Old Testament, you’ll read of “the kingdom of Judah” (descendant of Judah) and “the kingdom of Israel” (the descendants of the other sons). The people in the kingdom of Israel were eventually conquered by the Assyrians, and were either killed or absorbed into the Assyrian population. The descendants of Judah, on the other hand, retained their religion and heritage, despite centuries of obstacles and persecution. The words “Judaism” and “Jew” both allude to Jacob’s son Judah, the ancestor of most modern Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/6 "2002-07-17T20:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > **Thus, in the Old Testament, you’ll read of “the kingdom of Judah” (descendant of Judah) and “the kingdom of Israel” (the descendants of the other sons).** And to complicate things, the Kingdom of Judah also contained the tribe of Benjamin, as well as large numbers of members of the tribe of Levi (Levites didn’t have any tribal land of their own, but a large number lived in and around Jerusalem, especially after the Temple was built by Solomon, because Levites were the priests and attendants of the Temple.) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/7 "2002-07-17T21:09:16Z")
Just a few nitpicks to add (how can I not get my paws dirty in this thread, eh? ;j) from Zev: > [@](#): > > The Saducees pretty much faded after the destruction of the Temple. Pretty much, but possibly not entirely. On another message board called “the Pizza Parlor”, someone mentioned meeting a modern Saducee, and, while I can’t vouch for that person’s acquaintance having had Saducee ancestors going back two thousand years, I will say that what this person claimed to believe is in line with what I know about the Saducees. from Astorian: > [@](#): > > For a very short period of time, all the descendants of Jacob’s 12 sons lived in one country under one central government. During that time, their country was called Israel. Eventually, the descendants of Jacob’s son Judah split with the descendants of the other sons. The descendants of Benjamin stayed under Judah’s rule as well, as did most descendants of Levi. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/8 "2002-07-17T22:15:27Z")
It is important to remember that not all Israelis are Israelites (or Jews). A substantial minority are Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/9 "2002-07-17T22:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > Without the Temple (which, coincedentially, Jews will be commemorating the destruction of tonight and tomorrow), sacrifices cannot be brought. There’s a holiday and I wasn’t informed? Oy! ---
**Author:** ![maybesomeone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@maybesomeone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maybesomeone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/10 "2002-07-17T22:25:54Z")
Wow! Thanks for the fast replys and the great answers! ---
**Author:** ![maybesomeone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@maybesomeone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maybesomeone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/11 "2002-07-17T23:06:57Z")
So assuming something happened to the mosque that is there now, and by some miracle the Israelis were allowed to rebuild the temple, who would become the high priest and how would he be elected (?), ordained (?) whatever they do? thanks! Scott ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/12 "2002-07-17T23:10:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\* > > There’s a holiday and I wasn’t informed? Oy! \*\* More of a day of mourning. Here’s a tip - don’t ask Chaim or Zev out to lunch tomorrow. A couple of points: 1. Chaim: I think that bedides Benjamin, the tribe of Simon was also part of the kingdom of Judah.In fact, I have vague highschool memories of learning that they had already merged with their larger neighbours even earlier, in the time of the Judges. 2. Minor nitpick - Judah didn’t split off from the northern tribes; they split off from Judah, by refusing to accept the sovereignty of the House of David under Solomon’s son. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/13 "2002-07-17T23:12:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by maybesomeone \* > \*\*So assuming something happened to the mosque that is there now, and by some miracle the Israelis were allowed to rebuild the temple, who would become the high priest and how would he be elected (?), ordained (?) whatever they do? > thanks! Scott \*\* And that question is so politically charged you could use it to light up Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/14 "2002-07-17T23:22:18Z")
Alessan: > [@](#): > > Here’s a tip - don’t ask Chaim or Zev out to lunch tomorrow. On the other hand, he wouldn’t have to be worried that we’d constantly ask him “Are you gonna eat that?” or “Mind if I try a bite of yours?” 🙂 > [@](#): > > 1. Chaim: I think that bedides Benjamin, the tribe of Simon was also part of the kingdom of Judah.In fact, I have vague highschool memories of learning that they had already merged with their larger neighbours even earlier, in the time of the Judges. No. What you’re thinking of is the fact that Simon, rather than having its own distinct territory, had cities scattered within Judah’s territory. Nonetheless, they remained tribally distinct and politically, they aligned with the Northern Kingdom rather than the Southern. I’ll look up relevant reference verses after Tisha B’Av. maybesomeone: > [@](#): > > So assuming something happened to the mosque that is there now, and by some miracle the Israelis were allowed to rebuild the temple, who would become the high priest and how would he be elected (?), ordained (?) whatever they do? I think that such a thing would probably have to wait for Elijah the Prophet to sort out. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![MHand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@MHand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHand)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/15 "2002-07-17T23:47:15Z")
Isarelites are not called Jews simply because Juda was the surviving tribe. In the Book of Esther, Mordechi is called a “Yehudi” (Juda-ite or Jew) even though the Book of Esther specifically says that he is from the tribe of Benjamin. The Talmud Tractate Megillah explains that he is called a Yehudi (Jew) because the tribe of Juda resisted idol-worship, as did Mordechi (in the incident involving Haman’s necklace), and Benjamin did not. Perhaps all descendants of Israel are called Yehudim (Jews) because of our resistance to idol-worship, which was exemplefied in the tribe of Juda. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2002, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/16 "2002-07-17T23:54:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by maybesomeone \* > **So assuming … the Israelis were allowed to rebuild the temple** Allowed by whom (or Whom, perhaps)? ---
**Author:** ![maybesomeone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@maybesomeone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maybesomeone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/17 "2002-07-18T01:20:37Z")
At the extreme risk of setting off a really controversial post, which is not my intent, allowed by the different faiths that inhabit the city of Jerusalem, society, etc… If the present day mosque were destroyed, say by an act of nature, not even by terrorist, accident, etc., don’t you think that there would be a HUGE controversy as to what gets built/rebuilt in it’s place? That’s all that I was alluding to… Scott ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2002, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/18 "2002-07-18T01:52:30Z")
According to [This Cite](http://www.harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/ad70.htm), the destruction has been pinned to on or about August the 5th. Why is it being commemorated tomorrow and the next day? I believe what you are saying, **zev**. I just wish to know why the date was moved back to mid-July, when the math shows it was in August? Or, is it simply when it happens to fall **this** year? Cartooniverse ;j ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/19 "2002-07-18T02:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > \*\*According to [This Cite](http://www.harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/ad70.htm), the destruction has been pinned to on or about August the 5th. > > Why is it being commemorated tomorrow and the next day? I believe what you are saying, **zev**. I just wish to know why the date was moved back to mid-July, when the math shows it was in August? > > Or, is it simply when it happens to fall **this** year? > > Cartooniverse ;j \*\* It’s not fixed to the solar calendar, 'Toon. It’s fixed to the lunar calendar. It’s the same reason Passover and Hanukkah and every other holiday are celebrated on different dates every year. This year, we celebrate Tisha B’Av on July 17 and 18. Robin, who knows she shouldn’t be posting, but is anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463/20 "2002-07-19T14:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cartooniverse \* > \*\*According to [This Cite](http://www.harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/ad70.htm), the destruction has been pinned to on or about August the 5th. > > Why is it being commemorated tomorrow and the next day? I believe what you are saying, **zev**. I just wish to know why the date was moved back to mid-July, when the math shows it was in August? > > Or, is it simply when it happens to fall **this** year? > > Cartooniverse ;j \*\* **MsRobyn** pretty much spelled it out for you. _Tisha B’Av_ literally means “the 9th of Av.” The Jewish calendar is primarily a lunar one, with the year being 353-355 days long (there are two months which can have 29 or 30 days). As a result, the Jewish holidays “backtrack” about 10 days each year (as a frame of reference, last year Sept. 11 was before _Rosh Hashannah_. This year it’s after). There is, however, a Scriptural precept to keep Passover in the spring. As a result, the calendar is set up in such a way that in 7 out of every 19 years, an extra month is added to the calendar right before Passover, thus keeping the Jewish calendar pretty much in sync with the solar calendar. Zev Steinhardt [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-jewish-faith-questions/119463.md?page=2)