# Modern man a wimp - Australian aboriginals could outrun Bolt?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 24, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349 "2013-07-24T01:52:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/1 "2013-07-24T01:52:59Z")
…Neanderthal women could beat Arnie in an arm-wrestle and Athenian oarsmen could stomp any rower today. So claims [this](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/modern-man-a-wimp-says-anthropologist-1802501.html) Anthropologist, calling modern man a wimp. Sent off all my alarms - I know we’re all used to the stereotype of man in the past being more brawn than brain, and perhaps he was as hard lives produce hard men, but men of the past beating our pinnacle athletes today seems very hard to swallow. Whatdya reckon, is he on the money or not? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/2 "2013-07-24T02:25:09Z")
In short, no. Not just no but hell no. People in general may or may not be ‘wimps’ today but that has no bearing on elite athletes. Farm boys from the near past were pretty hardened too and they could even begin to compete in modern sports. Nobody scouts the 3rd world today for potential pro athletes unless they already have a dedication to the sport and years of training. Look at virtually any pure athletic sports record over the 20th century. Remember when people thought a 4 minute mile was impossible? High school track stars can do that today and the record is well beyond that. I don’t know that much about how athletic Neanderthals truly were and I doubt the author does either. All I know is that there aren’t any pure ones around today and people of European descent have about 4% Neanderthal DNA so the superiority model broke down somewhere along the line. The only evidence that is even close to that is Kenyan and Ethiopian marathon runners. Their elite athletes can beat everyone consistently but they are just that - elate athletes. The average Kenyan from the mountains would not be able to beat 1st world marathon runners at all and they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/3 "2013-07-24T02:32:20Z")
I should add that Australian Aborigines are genuine _homo sapiens_ that broke away from other groups earlier than any other surviving group about 40,000 - 50,000 years ago. There are still plenty of pure members around even if they are just a small percentage of the population. All you have to do is test the living members and see if that claim is true. As far as I know, it is completely false. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/4 "2013-07-24T02:45:40Z")
These claims are nonsense. > [@](#): > > - Roman legions completed more than one-and-a-half marathons a day carrying more than half their body weight in equipment. > > - Athens employed 30,000 rowers who could all exceed the achievements of modern oarsmen. > > - Australian aboriginals threw a hardwood spear 110 meters or more (the current world javelin record is 98.48). We went over the legion’s marching regimen in ['NFL player as ancient soldier’](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=694345&highlight=legion+linebacker)thread a while ago. Standard pace was 20 roman miles (shorter than the current mile) in 5 hours. Or 24 Roman miles in the same time in an emergency. Nowhere near a marathon and a half in a day. Oh and their gear weighed about 60 pounds. Triremes had a sail, so all the speed records from the ancient world need to account for this. Aboriginal hunters used a [spear thrower](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woomera_(spear-thrower))to increase their range. And judging [by this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vleudAj43tk)the spears used look very different from the javelin used by modern athletes. As for the speed estimate from the fossilised footprints - it’s 5kph (14%) slower than Bolt, even if you accept the measurement as valid in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/5 "2013-07-24T03:07:45Z")
If the Australian aborigines speed claims are the Willandra lakes tracks, a new study has revised the speed estimates down in 2013. > **[Formula can calculate a person's speed by just looking at their footprints](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130422101256.htm)** > > Scientists have designed an equation that provides a highly accurate estimate of an individual's speed based on stride length. They used data from professional athletes and walking and running experiments on a beach in order to come up with the... The original article above the OP quotes is from 2009. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/6 "2013-07-24T03:30:31Z")
Anthropology, as a hard science, would be right up there with Astrology. Colour me skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/7 "2013-07-24T03:34:05Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t know that much about how athletic Neanderthals truly were and I doubt the author does either. All I know is that there aren’t any pure ones around today and people of European descent have about 4% Neanderthal DNA so the superiority model broke down somewhere along the line. I’ll concur with you on the running, but Neanderthals were absolutely brutally strong, both men and women. No modern human can compare to the average Neanderthal in simple brute strength. Their skeletons were built for tremendous strength, and their forearm bones (on the dominant hand side) were actually deformed over time by the force of their grip. Yeah. As far as them being “superior”, they couldn’t run for shit, because of their wide pelvises, and therefore were not as efficient hunters-of-large-game. When humans with spears invaded Europe, they simply out-competed the Neanderthals in terms of hunting large game (or so the dominant theory goes, anyway). Their wide pelvises gave them tremendous leg strength, but it made it much harder for them to run efficiently. Oh well. They’d kick our asses at wrestling, no doubt. ROFL ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/8 "2013-07-24T04:57:56Z")
Nutrition gives modern humans an edge over people from the ancient world. But, I have seen aborigines hunting on documentaries and their skills were amazing. This older looking guy was in a hunting party looking for monkeys. He used a blow gun with poisoned darts. He’d shot the monkey in the tree like a couple hundred feet up. He wrapped his legs around the tree trunk and went up like it was nothing. He did that repeatedly all day long. I can’t see modern athletes getting up that tree even once. There were no lower limbs at all. It took pure leg and body muscle to get up it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/9 "2013-07-24T05:29:55Z")
Hell, even using my totally worn out and roached '90 DR 350 I’ll whip the shit out of any caveman or aboriginals in a point-to-point race. Advantage: Industrial Revolution ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/10 "2013-07-24T06:29:26Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > …Neanderthal women could beat Arnie in an arm-wrestle You can’t put Neanderthal people in the same category as Aborigenes and such. I read in some relatively recent book about Neanderthals that they had a different muscular structure. I don’t remember anything being said about wrestling, but I remember the author mentioning that it would have made them much better throwers than ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Emphant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Emphant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emphant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/11 "2013-07-24T07:46:49Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Nutrition gives modern humans an edge over people from the ancient world. But, I have seen aborigines hunting on documentaries and their skills were amazing. This older looking guy was in a hunting party looking for monkeys. He used a blow gun with poisoned darts. He’d shot the monkey in the tree like a couple hundred feet up. He wrapped his legs around the tree trunk and went up like it was nothing. He did that repeatedly all day long. > > I can’t see modern athletes getting up that tree even once. There were no lower limbs at all. It took pure leg and body muscle to get up it. What you are missing is that the older gentleman in question has been doing that his whole life. I can’t imagine it taking any world class athlete anymore than a week or two in order to accomplish that task, if they couldn’t already. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/12 "2013-07-24T08:30:50Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I read in some relatively recent book about Neanderthals that they had a different muscular structure. I don’t remember anything being said about wrestling, but I remember the author mentioning that it would have made them much better throwers than ourselves. No. Humans have the best arms for throwing. Their ability to hunt is what drives evolution.. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/13 "2013-07-24T08:56:04Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > No. Humans have the best arms for throwing. > Their ability to hunt is what drives evolution.. I don’t think “what drives evolution” makes any sense. Do you mean to say that the reason humans survived and neanderthals died out (apart from interbreeding) is because we were better hunters? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/14 "2013-07-24T09:33:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > the reason humans survived and neanderthals died out (apart from interbreeding) is because we were better hunters? There seems to be quite a lot of evidence that Neaderthals used heavy thrusting spears and relied on ambush in heavily wooded terrain. Homo Sapiens could throw lighter spears (and slingshots and arrows) longer distances accurately which made us better at plains hunting. Apparently 45,000 years ago some climate changes caused forests to retreat all over europe and the Neanderthals retreated with them. As always there is still considerable debate, some people now argue that Neanderthals can and did throw spears… > **[Could Neanderthals Throw #2](https://evoanth.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/could-neanderthals-throw-2/)** > > Neanderthals were very similar to us; even being so close genetically that we were able to interbreed. But it’s their differences that are fascinating because they suggest that all it takes i… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/15 "2013-07-24T10:37:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I can’t see modern athletes getting up that tree even once. There were no lower limbs at all. It took pure leg and body muscle to get up it. Think your tree climber man could do [this? (action starts at about 1:00)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBi22AKvsK0). What you need are the right modern athletes. Athletes who train to do that one set of things better than anyone else in history. Football players don’t climb trees, track stars don’t march with a pack of military gear. [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVqMO48RWQ) are some more tree climbing types. Sure, they actually use tools to climb their trees, but a blowgun is a tool, too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/16 "2013-07-24T13:41:31Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > You can’t put Neanderthal people in the same category as Aborigenes and such. > > I read in some relatively recent book about Neanderthals that they had a different muscular structure. I don’t remember anything being said about wrestling, but I remember the author mentioning that it would have made them much better throwers than ourselves. I think you’re remembering incorrectly. If anything, Neanderthals were more adapted to thrusting than throwing. But I don’t know if this is consensus or not. I’ve never heard anyone conjecture that Neanderthals were better at throwing than we are. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/17 "2013-07-24T14:06:32Z")
If Neanderthals were not at least as good as their southern cousin at running or throwing then they would have had to have been largely vegetarian to survive for the time that they did. Animals don’t just present themselves in front of bipedal apes to become food. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/18 "2013-07-24T14:59:54Z")
Thanks for the replies; thought it was eyebrow-raising to say the least. On Neanderthals, I’d always heard that they were more short and stocky in adaptation to the European climate at the time, the changing climate being one of the factors that led to them no longer being around. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/19 "2013-07-24T15:50:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If Neanderthals were not at least as good as their southern cousin at running or throwing then they would have had to have been largely vegetarian to survive for the time that they did. Animals don’t just present themselves in front of bipedal apes to become food. No but a Mongolian hunting drive [run the critters into a fenced area, blind canyon or off a cliff] works a treat for getting massive amounts of food, bone for tools and hides. I would imagine that smoking and sun drying meat is probably the oldest food preservation technology around, and probably practiced by our human ancestors, whether or not the Neanderthals did we can only conjecture. Maybe the jump to preserving food is where we survived as a species, and the Neanderthals who didn’t learn to preserve food died out. It would kick ass if we could find a Neanderthal Otzi in a glacier somewhere. Answer a hell of a lot of questions. ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349/20 "2013-07-24T18:31:22Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > It would kick ass if we could find a Neanderthal Otzi in a glacier somewhere. Answer a hell of a lot of questions. That’s an intriguing thought given the rate at which most of the world’s glaciers are retreating. Would think the next decade could be a major boon for anthropology. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-man-a-wimp-australian-aboriginals-could-outrun-bolt/664349.md?page=2)