# Modern Orthodox Jews and Unorthodox Sex Practices **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462 "2020-06-11T16:02:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/21 "2020-06-11T21:12:04Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Before they were married? Isn’t the fact that he’s not Jewish an unsurmountable issue? Yes. Setting aside the fact that you got this story second-hand, here’s one possible spin on it: That broker quoted her as saying that “she was stretching the definition even to go to bed with him before they were married.” It’s quite possible that what she WANTED to say was that “she was stretching the definition even to go to bed with a non-Jew before they were married.”, but she refrained from saying that for political correctness or some other reason. Yet another possibility is that she really did phrase it in those terms, but the version you got was sanitized of that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/22 "2020-06-11T21:18:16Z")
Apparently not. It seems clear from context that this young lady and he are already banging it out. Frankly, I’m uncertain about ‘Modern Orthodox’. I know she’s Sephardic and actually from Spain somewhere. As far as other restrictions, I also know she’s got ink. And even a dumbass like me knows that’s against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/23 "2020-06-11T21:35:28Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > As far as other restrictions, I also know she’s got ink. And even a dumbass like me knows that’s against the rules. Not really. Many rabbis have no problems with tattoos or are neutral towards them. There’s still a resistance against them but lots of observant Jews have ink. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/24 "2020-06-11T21:57:54Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Poetry is tough to interpret even in the best of circumstances, and the Song of Solomon is poetry _par excellence_. If you want responses, it would help to cite a specific chapter/verse. Chapter 4 is the big build up before the marriage is consummated: > **[Song of Songs 4 :: New King James Version (NKJV)](https://www.blueletterbible.org/nkjv/sng/4/1/s_675001)** > > Song of Songs 4 - \[The Beloved\] Behold, you \[are\] fair, my love! Behold, you \[are\] fair! You \[have\] dove's eyes behind your veil. Your hair \[is\] like a flock of goats, Going down from Mount Gilead. Specifically I was referring to 4:16. The preceding verses in Chapter 4 help put the passage in context. 4:16: The Shulamite Awake, O north wind, And come, O south! Blow upon my garden, That its spices may flow out. Let my beloved come to his garden And eat its pleasant fruits ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/25 "2020-06-11T22:16:35Z")
Girls say all kinds of things to get or get out of doing what they want. Your “friend” should just hang it up. The women have all the power as far as sex goes in a relationship. And don’t let anyone, even a modern orthodox Jewish girl, tell you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/26 "2020-06-11T22:45:29Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Girls say all kinds of things to get or get out of doing what they want. Your “friend” should just hang it up. The women have all the power as far as sex goes in a relationship. And don’t let anyone, even a modern orthodox Jewish girl, tell you otherwise. **Moderator Warning** **Omar Little** , I have absolutely no idea what this response is doing in this thread or for that matter in General Questions at all. Since I have previously instructed you to stick to factual responses in this forum, this is an official warning for failure to follow moderator instructions. Colibri General Questions Moderator Original instructions here. > [@Why do Mockingbirds Mock?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-mockingbirds-mock/852577/13): > > **Moderator Instructions** > > **Omar Little** , I’ve noted you a number of times for snarky posts that contribute nothing to answering the question. I’m instructing you to restrict your posts in this forum in the future to factual responses that address the question being asked, not personal remarks. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/27 "2020-06-11T22:50:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I dunno; in what I’ve read of the Kama Sutra (which isn’t much, because that book is a lot more boring than you’d think), it’s pretty much taken for granted that the couple are already married (though probably in an arranged marriage of neither of their choosing). Cite (Bolding mine ): “ Even those who have read the major English translation of the “Kamasutra” have not fully appreciated the book because that translation – how can I put this delicately? Well, it sucks. It dates from 1883 and was published just once in the U.S., 40 years ago in 1962. Richard Burton, the British army officer responsible for it, was the editor from hell. He altered the text considerably to \*\* shoehorn it into Victorian views about sexuality, \*\* notably the then popular notions that only men experience sexual desire and pleasure, and that women are nothing more than the passive recipients of men’s lust.” From : [https://www.salon.com/2002/05/29/kamasutra\_2/](https://www.salon.com/2002/05/29/kamasutra_2/) Don’t blame you Chronos, but your understanding is what a Victorian guy would like you to understand. As for Buddhism; Marriage is a secular part of life. The Buddhists monks or temple don’t get Involved in marriages - it has nothing to do with religion. Tibetans (Buddhists) famously used to be polyandrists and polygamists. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/28 "2020-06-11T23:11:37Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > The famous temple carvings I saw at Khajuraho in central India depicting a multitude of sexual adventures definitely involve much more than a single married couple. Perhaps the sex practices on the walls at Khajuraho were not addressed in the Kama Sutra, but some wild times were happening in India in days past. I grew up at a place about 150 miles from Khajuraho. Built around 1000 AD, there were originally 85 temples in an area about 8 sq miles. Only about 25 survive. Many temples and definitely temples dedicated to sex were destroyed when the Muslims invaded India but temples like Khajuraho and Ajanta survived because they were hidden in the forests. The sculptors per legend had teams trying out the sexual positions to aid in their art work and many of the positions are from the Kamasutra. After the Muslims, when the British ruled India, they came with their own western “morality”. For example Transgenders who had enjoyed their own position in society were declared illegal by the British 1533 Buggery Act which criminalized non-procreative sexualities. It was last year; I think when the Supreme Court of India legalized them and all government forms has M/F/T for sex. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/29 "2020-06-12T00:03:17Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Maybe for Abrahamic religions. > > Hinduism (which is loosely a religion per the western definition) has numerous examples of polyandry, polygamy and sex outside of marriage, in the “holy” texts. Well, so do the Abrahamic religions, Christianity, for that matter. It’s a fairly basic mistake to assume that anything which is _mentioned_ in the “holy texts” is implicitly _approved_ by them. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/30 "2020-06-12T00:09:55Z")
Telemark: > [@](#): > > Not really. Many rabbis have no problems with tattoos or are neutral towards them. Orthodox Rabbis? And in particular, those not affiliated with the movement that calls itself “Open Orthodox” which diverges significantly from traditional Orthodox belief and practice and is more like the Conservative movement? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/31 "2020-06-12T00:10:41Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Isn’t the fact that he’s not Jewish an unsurmountable issue? I saw what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/32 "2020-06-12T00:20:38Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Orthodox Rabbis? Probably not, I think that’s still a bridge that won’t be crossed. But certainly there are some Conservative and many Reform Jewish rabbis who are OK with, or at least neutral to, tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/33 "2020-06-12T00:27:12Z")
Sex is naturally related to fertility, and e.g. ritual sex (unrelated to marriage) is, at the least, a concept in some religions. Not that it necessarily indicates an endorsement of random sex between random strangers. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/34 "2020-06-12T00:42:01Z")
Telemark: > [@](#): > > Probably not, I think that’s still a bridge that won’t be crossed. But certainly there are some Conservative and many Reform Jewish rabbis who are OK with, or at least neutral to, tattoos. I have no doubt that that’s true, but the views of those Rabbis aren’t really germane to this thread, which asks specifically regarding someone purporting to be Modern Orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/35 "2020-06-12T01:10:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I have no doubt that that’s true, but the views of those Rabbis aren’t really germane to this thread, which asks specifically regarding someone purporting to be Modern Orthodox. Well it was right after the OP said “Frankly, I’m uncertain about ‘Modern Orthodox’” so I thought it was still germane. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/36 "2020-06-12T09:01:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Before they were married? Isn’t the fact that he’s not Jewish an unsurmountable issue? It’s certainly an obstacle but… 1. He could convert. It’s not encouraged and it’s not easy, but it has been done. 2. Regardless of who the father is, any child of hers would be born Jewish. Membership in the tribe is matrilineal. But yeah, it’s not at all encouraged and traditionally if a Jew marries out of the faith they’re ostracized - when my parents married my dad’s family held a funeral for him and some of them never spoke to any of us, ever. (Others sat shiva yet still associated with us - people are complicated) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/37 "2020-06-12T09:04:23Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > As far as other restrictions, I also know she’s got ink. And even a dumbass like me knows that’s against the rules. Jews are not saints. A lot of them do things against the rules because they’re humans. Also, whether tattoos are allowed or not is debatable. They certainly are frowned on by most older Jews. Heck, in my father’s family women never pierced their ears (all of grandma’s extensive earring collection were clip-ons) based on the same rationale as no tattoos. Other Orthodox Jews are just fine with pierced ears. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/38 "2020-06-12T11:29:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Also, whether tattoos are allowed or not is debatable. Debatable only in the sense that one might debate whether any of the Torah’s laws are binding or not. The prohibition against tattoos is explicit in Leviticus 19:28. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/39 "2020-06-12T11:48:53Z")
Darn it, I can’t find it now, but threesomes were permitted in the Torah as long as it was a man, and two of his legal wives-- AND, the wives were not sisters. In fact, that’s actually the point of the verse, that if a man wants to have sex with two of his wives at the same time, they cannot be sisters. In regard to tattoos, this may be a UL, but I have been told a couple of times that the whole kerfuffle began with a single cemetery that refused to bury Jews with tattoos, because at the time, the ink pretty much invariably contained iron oxide, and that violated the rule for using preservatives or putting metals in a casket. IF that’s true, it sounds to me that there was someone with a personal beef with tattoos, who went looking for a reason to exclude people with them. I have no idea whether most tattoo ink still contains iron oxide now, but it really did at one time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/40 "2020-06-12T13:07:28Z")
It looks to me like Leviticus 19:28 prohibits cutting or marking oneself _for the dead_. So a tattoo memorializing a lost loved one (which I’ve seen a fair amount among gentiles) would be forbidden, but that law wouldn’t apply for a tattoo for other reasons (which I’ve seen even more of). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462.md?page=3)