# Modern Orthodox Jews and Unorthodox Sex Practices **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462 "2020-06-11T16:02:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/41 "2020-06-12T13:31:30Z")
All those examples would fall under fornication or adultery, which are prohibited by all Abrahamic religions, and yes she is being a bit of a hypocrite by sleeping with the guy at all out of wedlock. There is no such thing as “two legal wives” in any western country, and I assume she is in one. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/42 "2020-06-12T13:40:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It looks to me like Leviticus 19:28 prohibits cutting or marking oneself _for the dead_. So a tattoo memorializing a lost loved one (which I’ve seen a fair amount among gentiles) would be forbidden, but that law wouldn’t apply for a tattoo for other reasons (which I’ve seen even more of). The full line prohibits marking the flesh for the dead or making incisions in the flesh. The second part is generally considered the reason for an absolute ban on tattoos. Jewish law, however, is rarely as simple as making a logical conclusions about biblical passages. Hundreds of years of Talmudic scholarship carved out the “official” interpretations of the laws, many of which are more proscriptive than what seems to be necessary. Maimonides says no tattoos (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Idolatry 12:11), so there’s no tattoos. It’s in the same vein as banning the consumption of all meat with all dairy because of the biblical prohibition on boiling a kid in it’s mother’s milk. It doesn’t matter if you happen to know that this cheese didn’t come from the mother of this animal. It doesn’t even matter if the meat in question comes from an animal that doesn’t produce dairy: you can’t claim you’re keeping kosher and wash a chicken sandwich down with a glass of milk. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/43 "2020-06-12T14:48:33Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > All those examples would fall under fornication or adultery, which are prohibited by all Abrahamic religions, and yes she is being a bit of a hypocrite by sleeping with the guy at all out of wedlock. There is no such thing as “two legal wives” in any western country, and I assume she is in one. Yeah. South Carolina, really. So my takeaway here is that she’s not lying, per se. Group sex, threesomes and suchlike are out-of-bounds via the talmud. However, the lady in question is already showing signs of a certain…flexibility…toward other talmudic restraints so this is also one she could get past if she wanted to. Maybe I’m wrong - and I’ve never met her, I’ve just been told - but I still think my original thesis of ‘she just doesn’t want to do them with him’ is the most likely scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/44 "2020-06-12T15:05:24Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Maybe I’m wrong - and I’ve never met her, I’ve just been told - but I still think my original thesis of ‘she just doesn’t want to do them with him’ is the most likely scenario. I suspect the majority of people wouldn’t be agreeable to threesomes or swinging, no matter who the partner is. I’m not sure why you think that your friend or the woman’s religion is the main reason for her reluctance. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/45 "2020-06-12T15:38:21Z")
Telemark: > [@](#): > > Well it was right after the OP said “Frankly, I’m uncertain about ‘Modern Orthodox’” so I thought it was still germane. My misunderstanding, I thought you meant that the existence of such rabbis in the Orthodox camp meant she might still be adhering to Modern Orthodox Judaism even with the tattoos. RivkaChaya: > [@](#): > > Darn it, I can’t find it now, but threesomes were permitted in the Torah as long as it was a man, and two of his legal wives-- AND, the wives were not sisters. In fact, that’s actually the point of the verse, that if a man wants to have sex with two of his wives at the same time, they cannot be sisters. No, not at all. A man can never be married to two sisters while the first one he married is still alive (even if they’d gotten divorced) at all. And threesomes are out. I’ll have to find the exact source later, but a man is not even supposed to be thinking about another woman - not even another of his own wives - while having sex with his wife. Certainly having them both at the same time is more severe than that. Chronos: > [@](#): > > It looks to me like Leviticus 19:28 prohibits cutting or marking oneself for the dead. So a tattoo memorializing a lost loved one (which I’ve seen a fair amount among gentiles) would be forbidden, but that law wouldn’t apply for a tattoo for other reasons (which I’ve seen even more of). It prohibits scarring one’s self for the dead, and tattoos for any reason. It’s two distinct phrases, “the Dead” is mentioned only in the first. Boozahol Squid, P.I.: > [@](#): > > Jewish law, however, is rarely as simple as making a logical conclusions about biblical passages. Hundreds of years of Talmudic scholarship carved out the “official” interpretations of the laws, many of which are more proscriptive than what seems to be necessary. “Seems” being the operative word. Said Talmudic scholarship carved it that way because when the total body of law is considered, it provides evidence that that was the actual intent of the Biblical verses (even if, taken in isolation, they seem more limited in scope…or in other cases, more broad in scope). > [@](#): > > It doesn’t even matter if the meat in question comes from an animal that doesn’t produce dairy: you can’t claim you’re keeping kosher and wash a chicken sandwich down with a glass of milk. Actually, in that particular situation, it DOES matter. The Biblical prohibition - Talmudically determined - only applies to animals that give milk. Fowl with milk is prohibited as a Rabbinical precaution because it’s too easy to mistake fowl for mammalian meat. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/46 "2020-06-12T16:35:36Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > However, the lady in question is already showing signs of a certain…flexibility…toward other talmudic restraints so this is also one she could get past if she wanted to. I don’t think so. I’m an atheist and I would not be able to get past it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/48 "2020-06-12T19:02:44Z")
**Moderator Explanation** A post previous to this one was made by a troll impersonating Jonathan Chance. The troll has been banned and his posts removed. I am posting this explanation since the post was reported, in order to answer questions as to why it was disappeared. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/49 "2020-06-12T19:11:33Z")
That makes sense, and I was shocked to see “Jonathan Chance - BANNED” there…how did the troll do that? Extra blank space? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/50 "2020-06-12T20:42:16Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Debatable only in the sense that one might debate whether any of the Torah’s laws are binding or not. The prohibition against tattoos is explicit in Leviticus 19:28. Definitely it’s forbidden to “make cuttings in your flesh for the dead”. I’ve seen several translations of the second part, varying between “printing”, “tattooing”, “incising” or “making” marks on one’s body so that’s the part I see argued. Since I can’t read Biblical Hebrew and don’t have a a Bible in that (presumably) original text I have to rely on translators and what other people say. To me (for whatever pittance my opinion is worth) I would interpret the passage as “no tattoos” but a lot of Jews violate a lot of the rules and still keep being Jewish. It’s just that, unlike eating bacon, there’s a permanent reminder of what the person did that was a no-no. I’m pretty sure a lot of Jews have gotten tattoos over the centuries (and I’m excluding those who were tattooed against their will). DEFINITELY a no-no would be tattoos connected to another religion, particularly a polytheistic one. Tattoos for medical reasons are more likely to be seen as acceptable, since nearly all rules give way to saving a life. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/51 "2020-06-12T20:45:38Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I have no idea whether most tattoo ink still contains iron oxide now, but it really did at one time. Some does, some doesn’t. That which does can cause issues if an MRI is necessary. There have been cases of burn injuries induced by an MRI in tattoos, particularly those with dark or black ink, but it hasn’t been really studied and the results aren’t entirely consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/52 "2020-06-12T21:10:33Z")
I found this: > [@](#): > > Talmud, Ketubot 61b > “The times for conjugal duty prescribed in the Torah are: for men of independent means, every day; for laborers, twice a week; for donkey drivers, once a week; for camel drivers, once in thirty days; for sailors, once in six months.” > > \ > > Talmud, Ketubot 48a > “There must be close bodily contact during sex. This means that a husband must not treat his wife in the manner of the Persians, who perform their marital duties in their clothes. This provides support for the ruling of Rav Huna who ruled that a husband who says, ‘I will not perform my marital duties unless she wears her clothes and I mine,’ must divorce her and give her also her ketubah settlement [the monetary settlement agreed to in the marriage contract].” > > \ > > Mishneh Torah, Laws Concerning Forbidden Relations 21:9 > “Since a man’s wife is permitted to him, he may act with her in any manner whatsoever. He may have intercourse with her whenever he so desires and kiss any organ of her body he wishes, and he may have intercourse with her naturally or unnaturally [traditionally, this refers to anal and oral sex], provided that he does not expend semen to no purpose. Nevertheless, it is an attribute of piety that a man should not act in this matter with levity and that he should sanctify himself at the time of intercourse.” > > \ > > Talmud, Gittin 70a > “Three things enfeeble a man’s body, namely, to eat standing, to drink standing, and to have marital intercourse in a standing position.” > > Talmud, Niddah 13b > “It was taught at the school of Rabbi Ishmael, ‘Thou shall not commit adultery’ implies, Thou shall not practice masturbation either with hand or with foot.” > > SOURCE: [https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/traditional-sources-on-sexual-pleasure/](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/traditional-sources-on-sexual-pleasure/) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/53 "2020-06-12T23:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Broomstick** : > > Tattoos for medical reasons are more likely to be seen as acceptable, since nearly all rules give way to saving a life. [But your barbed wire bicep is pretty hardcore, too.](https://xkcd.com/933/) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/54 "2020-06-12T23:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Broomstick** : > > Tattoos for medical reasons are more likely to be seen as acceptable, since nearly all rules give way to saving a life. [But your barbed wire bicep is pretty hardcore, too.](https://xkcd.com/933/) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/55 "2020-06-13T01:41:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . > > DEFINITELY a no-no would be tattoos connected to another religion, particularly a polytheistic one. > > Tattoos for medical reasons are more likely to be seen as acceptable, since nearly all rules give way to saving a life. Tangent: 1. What is the particular objection to polytheistic religion? Wasn’t Baal a sort of monotheistic god? 2. Is there an easy example of a rule that does not give way to saving a life? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/56 "2020-06-13T02:08:32Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Is there an easy example of a rule that does not give way to saving a life? > **[Self-sacrifice in Jewish law | Three exceptional sins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_in_Jewish_law#Three_exceptional_sins)** > > There are three sins for which one is always required to die rather than transgress: > 1.idolatry | > 2.sexual misconduct such as incest, adultery, homosexuality, or bestiality (see sexual immorality prohibited by Torah) | > 3.murder The above three are ruled as being exceptions by the Talmud. In tractate Sanhedrin 74a, the Talmud records: "Rav Yochanan said in the name of Rav Shimon ben Yehotzadak: 'It was decided by a vote in the loft of the house of Nitezeh in Lod: For all the sins in the Torah, ... > [@](#): > > For all the sins in the Torah, if a person is told, “Transgress and you will not be killed,” they should transgress and not be killed, except for idol worship, sexual relations and bloodshed.'" A Jew must sacrifice his or her life rather than transgress the above-mentioned sins. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/57 "2020-06-13T09:09:13Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > Tangent: > > 1. What is the particular objection to polytheistic religion? Wasn’t Baal a sort of monotheistic god? **“I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt have no other Gods before Me.”** Really, it’s that simple - Jews have one and only one God, and are not allowed to venerate any other gods. That is taken to mean never using anything involved in another religions rites and rituals (if the view is that the God of Christianity and Islam are the same God that allows for some wiggle room - remember, neither of those two upstart religions existed at the time the ten commandments were written), not participating in any way in other religious rites/rituals, and not using their symbols. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/58 "2020-06-13T12:26:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Abraham had a wife and a mistress, Jacob had two wives and two mistresses, and King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 mistresses. Men in the Bible weren’t exactly expected to be monogamous… According to the “Damascus Document” found at Qumran, King David had more than one wife because he was unaware of the law — _The Book of Law_ which prohibited polygamy had been sealed up in the Ark of the Covenant in the time of Joshua, and the Ark hadn’t been opened again to read _The Book_ until the time of Zadok(?). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/59 "2020-06-13T13:16:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > **“I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt have no other Gods before Me.”** > > Really, it’s that simple - Jews have one and only one God, and are not allowed to venerate any other gods. That is taken to mean never using anything involved in another religions rites and rituals (if the view is that the God of Christianity and Islam are the same God that allows for some wiggle room - remember, neither of those two upstart religions existed at the time the ten commandments were written), not participating in any way in other religious rites/rituals, and not using their symbols. It seems Baal could be an epithet of a number of gods, not necessarily Yahweh. Once upon a time the Israelites were more or less OK with polytheism, like **Melbourne** says, but definitely not Jews now, for a couple thousand years already. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/60 "2020-06-13T17:48:11Z")
“Baal” is an appelative meaning “Lord”–. Baal was another regional (Philistine, Caananite) deity. Cf. “Beelzebub,” \<בַּעַל זְבוּב Baʿal Zəvûv, meaning “Lord of the Flies.” The Hebrew deity is, like all deities, syncretic. El, YHVH, El Shaddai, Elohim (a plural), and other deities were incorporated into a central monotheistic deity in a process similar to, “No, look, your earth mother goddess is really the Virgin!” In realist (as we would say in Hebrew, דַּוְקָא, davka, “in fact, to the contrary”), monotheism, especially with an intangible deity, is hard to do. People like intercessors, symbols, and concrete representations of the numinous. Judaism is monotheistic but full of accreted deities that float about like bits of stray code. For example, depending on the zeitgeist and how literal the interpreter is being, G-d has a wife, who’s also maybe the spirit of the people of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462/61 "2020-06-13T18:39:55Z")
> [@susan](#): > > In realist (as we would say in Hebrew, דַּוְקָא, davka, “in fact, to the contrary”), monotheism, especially with an intangible deity, is hard to do. People like intercessors, symbols, and concrete representations of the numinous. Per my understanding; Sikhism the fifth largest organized religion is monotheistic with a diety that is shapeless and timeless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-orthodox-jews-and-unorthodox-sex-practices/855462.md?page=4)