# Modern US Army vs Nazi Army **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 26, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957 "2016-09-26T18:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/21 "2016-09-26T23:21:05Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But the US contribution to the war was, at best, tertiary so far as I’ve come to understand the issue.) Well, we were (almost single handedly) beating the shit out of Japan, and we did provide a huge amount of materiel to the USSR, including around 400,000 trucks. "American Lend-Lease aid wasn’t able to come through the Black Sea until well into 1942. In Operation Uranus, the Soviet counterattack at Stalingrad, the Red Army first employed American Sherman tanks in great numbers, and with good results. Later, in preparation for Operation Bagration, the Soviet summer offensive of 1944, the Americans sent Stalin a gift of 100,000 (yes, that’s 1 with 5 zeros behind it) Studebaker trucks. These trucks were instrumental in allowing the Soviets to carry an offensive deep into German occupied Belorussia and effectively obliterate Army Group Center, the last major German Army Group in the East, far larger than the forces opposing the Western Allies in Normandy." ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/22 "2016-09-26T23:38:34Z")
The big problem with any Time-Travelling Modern Army is lack of spare parts and ammunition. As with the Final Countdown situation, that ship is toast as soon as it runs out of missiles and fuel for the jets, even as they slowly break down. Computerized parts? They break and it is all over for you. And then there’s the whole Modern Army (Integrated, Women) finding itself under the command of a far more racist and sexist era. Do you think the 30% of our army who are non-white would appreciate the era? Or the 16% who are women? And nearly half of the women are non-white. So @ 7.5% of our armed forces are non-white women. Do you think they’d enjoy that era, or be allowed to keep their jobs? But just on a mechanical level, that army goes until it runs out of ammo, then it is done. No one is building new guided missiles and bombs or modern tank shells. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/23 "2016-09-26T23:42:02Z")
The US military would make short work of the 1944-era Nazi military. A more interesting question is how the Nazis would fare against a technologically superior force with modern weapons, but poorer training and motivation. Harry Turtledove sorta looked at this in his WorldWar series, in which aliens had the equivalent of modern military technology, but were slowed substantially by limited resources and poor military tactics, due to their not expecting to encounter significant resistance. So a more interesting question would be, what if the Arab world was transported back to 1944? Would they have the capability to conquer Europe? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/24 "2016-09-26T23:47:51Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > This is disputed. I’m not saying you are necessarily wrong, because the bombs were certainly a big factor, but it also coincided with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. But the topic at hand is about Nazis! > > To the OP: > > At what point are we hypothetically transporting the modern US military into WWII? As soon as Nazi’s invade Poland? Or say later, on D-Day? I’m not sure I have an answer to either (except the nuke Berlin answer I gave above), but I’d love to read others answers for either case. I’m not sure when Nazi Germany was at its strongest, I was thinking D-Day but maybe we should go for a month or two before they decided to attack Russia. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/25 "2016-09-26T23:48:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The big problem with any Time-Travelling Modern Army is lack of spare parts and ammunition. As with the Final Countdown situation, that ship is toast as soon as it runs out of missiles and fuel for the jets, even as they slowly break down. Computerized parts? They break and it is all over for you. > > And then there’s the whole Modern Army (Integrated, Women) finding itself under the command of a far more racist and sexist era. Do you think the 30% of our army who are non-white would appreciate the era? Or the 16% who are women? And nearly half of the women are non-white. So @ 7.5% of our armed forces are non-white women. Do you think they’d enjoy that era, or be allowed to keep their jobs? > > But just on a mechanical level, that army goes until it runs out of ammo, then it is done. No one is building new guided missiles and bombs or modern tank shells. My thinking is the entire country teleports in time not just the military. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/26 "2016-09-26T23:50:50Z")
Question: I know we can transport large numbers of troops by air these days, but one area of weakness we’d have initially in fighting the Germans would be the Battle of the Atlantic. We just don’t have enough ships for convoys and even if we did, how good are modern ships at detecting antiquated subs? I assume a WW2 era torpedo will sink a modern destroyer almost as easily as an old WW2 destroyer, and they’d be taking out our merchant shipping left and right. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/27 "2016-09-27T00:10:22Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Airpower is crazy better than it was; for example, a B-17 Flying Fortress carried 6000 lbs of bombs 2000 miles at 182 mph. A B-1B Lancer (our highest bombload long range bomber) can carry 42,000+ lbs of bombs some 5900 miles at 340 mph. > > In other words, one B-1B carries the bombload of 7 B-17 bombers twice as fast and three times as far. And those bombs could be precision-guided as well. So put simply, we could drop more bombs more accurately than the WWII bombers, and we could do so without putting our aircraft or aircrews in nearly so much peril as in the real war. > > I suspect that the strategic bombing campaign would hamstring the Nazis before we’d even need to land troops on the European continent. You severely underestimate the [B-1B](http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104500/b-1b-lancer.aspx) top speed of Mach 1.2 or 900+ MPH a payload of 75,000 pounds and an “intercontinental” Range. Even a modern 747 is faster than 340 mph. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/28 "2016-09-27T00:29:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Question: I know we can transport large numbers of troops by air these days, but one area of weakness we’d have initially in fighting the Germans would be the Battle of the Atlantic. We just don’t have enough ships for convoys and even if we did, how good are modern ships at detecting antiquated subs? I assume a WW2 era torpedo will sink a modern destroyer almost as easily as an old WW2 destroyer, and they’d be taking out our merchant shipping left and right. The world war 2 U-boats had an early version of sonar that they didn’t actually use because it the surface ships could find them off their sonar pings. They could only go underwater for short periods of time, since they couldn’t use their diesel engines underwater. The subs actually had a 75% casualty rate, the highest of any unit type of the war. I think a modern navy escort would make mincemeat of the U-boat fleets. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/29 "2016-09-27T00:43:59Z")
Do all of our satellites time travel too? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/30 "2016-09-27T00:49:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Assuming we have the Air Force and Navy too, then the only US casualties should be from friendly fire and accidents. I’m not sure it would be that good. Call it maybe a month and 500-1000 KIA? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/31 "2016-09-27T00:51:23Z")
Any single US Navy ship of destroyer size or larger would spot the U-boats via drones (or possibly satellites, if we get to bring those back too), then destroy them via missiles, before the U-boat ever got within torpedo range. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/32 "2016-09-27T00:56:18Z")
Drewder, you ask “how many weeks for Berlin to fall”. Does this mean “How long before we march into berlin?” or “How long before they surrender?” I’m thinking a few overwhelming battles with a show of force the likes of which they have never imagined before would be pretty demoralizing. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/33 "2016-09-27T01:05:29Z")
WWII subs are/were noisy as hell - modern sonar could pin-point a U Boat just by its screw noise. Until somebody showed China how to make a non-captivating screw, theirs boats were broadcasting their locations to simply everybody. If the stuff being transported back to 1942 (my guess for Germany at its peak) includes the seabed sonar beacons the US Navy has all over the friggin’ world, the U boats can be sunk before any transport ship is even loaded. Once the U Boat threat is removed, the campaign can include modern ships en-route with parts and ammo. And oilers. lots of oilers. One hiccup: Modern bombers would die trying to either take off or land at 1940’s runways. They are not long enough or even come close to being strong enough. That B-52 (forget the B-1 or B-2 - no chance in Hell) is the simplest strategic bomber in service - and I’ll bet it needs a runway that 1940’s builders could not grasp, let alone build. The C-130 and its variants could, with rocket pods (JATO) maybe use the airstrips of the time. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/34 "2016-09-27T01:10:33Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > … > > One hiccup: Modern bombers would die trying to either take off or land at 1940’s runways. They are not long enough or even come close to being strong enough. That B-52 (forget the B-1 or B-2 - no chance in Hell) is the simplest strategic bomber in service - and I’ll bet it needs a runway that 1940’s builders could not grasp, let alone build. > > The C-130 and its variants could, with rocket pods (JATO) maybe use the airstrips of the time. If the whole country got transported, that would include modern airstrips within our borders, at least. If not also at bases around the world, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/35 "2016-09-27T01:35:23Z")
With modern rapid helicopter airlift, could we drop enough troops right in the heart of Berlin to capture Hitler and the entire German high command? Would that be a good way to use modern capabilities in the context of, say, 1943? Could we simply decapitate the beast, rather than fight it out with the enemy military? In a lesser fashion, could we stage such airmobile raids on theater command centers, capturing their generals and field marshals and disrupting their communications? Should we be wild and bold, and go for Berlin, or more cautious and just neutralize theater commanders? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/36 "2016-09-27T01:50:02Z")
If our high command knew the whole Nazi story, Holocaust, etc., and understood how bad letting the Soviets take Eastern Europe would complicate the upcoming post-war world, then the war would be over very quickly. Berlin would be incinerated by lunchtime and the rump government would be trying to get organized enough to surrender by sunset. Especially so when you consider that by D-Day in 1944 a lot of high ranking Nazis had become anti-Hitler at least in secret. The folks outside Berlin would be real anxious to stop the fighting. If we weren’t willing to use nukes first we’d still be bunker-busting the crap out of their HQs. EW would terminate their entire national command and control system except for motorcycle couriers and carrier pigeons. If we let them keep radio we’d break all the ciphers trivially and read their comms from end to end. The biggest problem the modern air arms would have is that we simply don’t have enough airplanes to kill all the juicy essentially undefended targets. But unlike in WWII we don’t need to drop 10,000 tons of bombs over a week to wreck a factory. Instead we send in 2 jets one time and actually hit the place. The Navy would be similar. Shortly after a U-boat surfaces at night it simply explodes. They can’t detect our radars nor our incoming ordnance. Nor do anything about it if they do. As with the air forces, we don’t have the raw numbers to be everywhere. But anywhere we are, they’re not. At least not anymore. Zero of their spotter planes will return from their first mission. The Nazi surface navy, such as it was by 1944, wouldn’t fare any better. Nobody would realize they were in danger until they started exploding. You just can’t fight what you can’t see. The Army will have it rougher, but not that much rougher. Between artillery and night vision it’ll be like the Blitzkrieg was against the Polish cavalry in 1939 but in reverse. They can’t see, think, decide, move, or shoot even half as fast as we can. Nor can they do it 24 hours a day rain or shine. Again the biggest problem we face is compared to the sheer physical size of the German army, we just don’t have that many men or machines. We utterly dominate wherever we are. But there’s lots of places we just can’t be. Fortunately modern air power can hold a flank pretty well. Keeping our supply lines secure from pincer attacks is probably the rate-limiting step in the advance. Unlike in WWII we may not really need to be doing strategic bombing, other than of military HQs and staging yards. We’re going to win by driving our spearhead into their capital in a few days tops. The war of strategic factory destruction and materiel attrition we fought last time just won’t be necessary. Instead of the ginourmous multi-fronted war back in real 1944 this time the Army will drive their forces eastwards across a relatively narrow (WAG) 300 mile front and the air arms will be tasked to keep any serious flank attacks at bay. Even now that’d be a tall order in the low stratus of a European winter. In June it’d be almost fun. The modern DoD is at its best when it can plan. So the best thing to do might be to materialize the modern US into the scenario in early May 1944 then spend about a month (or two) getting the whole intel / mapping / targeting system aligned with the current Nazi reality. While moving the heavy / slow forces from CONUS over to be in position for D-Day. Then when we’re set up, drop the flag and drive at full speed to (what’s left of) Berlin. And this time keep going until we arrive at the Soviet border. Individual DoD members are most certainly at risk here. Nobody is bulletproof just because your side is assured of winning. But the casualty counts are gonna be real lopsided. Just like in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/37 "2016-09-27T01:58:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > With modern rapid helicopter airlift, could we drop enough troops right in the heart of Berlin to capture Hitler and the entire German high command? > > Would that be a good way to use modern capabilities in the context of, say, 1943? Could we simply decapitate the beast, rather than fight it out with the enemy military? > > In a lesser fashion, could we stage such airmobile raids on theater command centers, capturing their generals and field marshals and disrupting their communications? > > Should we be wild and bold, and go for Berlin, or more cautious and just neutralize theater commanders? Good thinking. The OP wants to refight D-Day and the advance on Berlin. But we don’t have to. IMO even modern airmobile forces don’t have the range to raid Berlin from Britain. Or even from the French coast until we’ve fought some ways in. By the time we get to the French/German border though things will be different. Berlin, or the approaches to it will be in range for such raids. Using airmobile raids against intermediate HQs and generally ranging a couple hundred miles out ahead of the armor/infrantry spearhead to create mischief in the enemy rear is a darn good idea. As is simply using tacair to locate and destroy those same places. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/38 "2016-09-27T03:39:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And this time keep going until we arrive at the Soviet border. Why would they stop there?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/39 "2016-09-27T03:43:40Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Our spy planes would have everything the Nazis had deployed tracked down in a few days and our bombers would be able to take it all out in a few more days. Our tanks would roll through and clean out the rest. > > Well…and the Russians, and all the British intelligence, and the fact that the Nazis ultimately followed a pretty stupid war strategy. (It’s basically pretty impressive that the Germans succeeded to the extent that they did. I assume it’s largely thanks to what must have been a massive and impressive manufacturing capability. But the US contribution to the war was, at best, tertiary so far as I’ve come to understand the issue.) The material contribution to the war effort from the US was massive. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957/40 "2016-09-27T03:48:42Z")
Massive Berlin raid from helicopter carriers at the closest offshore point? I’m assuming total air and sea superiority. Are there any unexpected threats from low-tech prop planes or whatever to the modern carrier group? I guess flak is a problem for the choppers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/modern-us-army-vs-nazi-army/766957.md?page=3)