# Mods, clarification regarding Milum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846 "2004-06-23T18:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/41 "2004-06-24T12:58:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, you’re right on target. There are a hundred hand-wringing, knee-jerking, bleeding-heart Leftistas for every one busy-body, self-righteous, war-mongering Rightista, and a hundred of those for every reasonable, tempered, objective thinker. What one would expect as a result is a predominance of “our lying politician is better than your lying politician” rah-rah discussions, each more interesting than the next. That’s cool, but would you mind including in your ratios all the frothing, not-looking-at-facts, shortsighted Libertarians? I’m just curious how you sort them out; I **know** you’re not including them automatically in the “objective thinker” category. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/42 "2004-06-24T13:03:25Z")
Well, there’s only one of those, isn’t there? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/43 "2004-06-24T13:24:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, there’s only one of those, isn’t there? 😃 😉 Not at all. In my experience, libertarians are almost as common as social progressives over in Great Debates. And far from all of them are objective clear-eyed thinkers. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/44 "2004-06-24T13:47:44Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > My words have been misconstrued and complete and utter fabrications have pretty much been the norm in these threads about what I really was or was not saying. Welcome to the SDMB. 🙂 > [@Starving Artist](#): > > And by pretty much equating me with **Milum** , and since this is a thread in which an attempt is being made to ban **Milum** , I can only assume they would like to see me banned as well. Yes, they would. You are conservative, and refuse to roll over. They hate that. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > So for them to come in here and complain about how I’ve been mistreating them and once again misstating my words and points of view is absolutely astonishing to me, particularly since they claimed in the other threads that I had been “demolished,” “eviscerated,” and “destroyed,” and shown without question to be a complete and utter fool. Yes, you will get this a lot. It saves them the trouble of actually refuting what you say if they simply declare victory and have two or three of their fellows agree. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > (I)t _is_ supposed to be a debate, right? If you only want people posting who agree with you, and whose comments don’t anger and frustrate you because they are in keeping with your own, where is the debate? And if you continue to misconstrue, reword, and put words in the mouths of your opponents to try to make them appear to be saying something much more outrageous than they’re really saying, where is the opportunity for debate there? Some want to debate. Some simply want a circle-jerk, where everyone agrees with whoever is the most determinedly anti-Bush. If anyone refuses to play along, they try to start a pile-on. I am sure some conservatives would like to do the same, but as you mention, there aren’t many of us here. And most of the conservative jerks have been driven away by the liberal jerks, using largely the tactics described above. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Milum is very satirical and biting in his considerable humor, but what is wrong with that? What’s wrong with it? He’s not liberal. Or, more accurately, he is not a Bush-basher. If he agrees not to vote for or support Bush, everything he does would become perfectly acceptable. It is simply that conservatives on the SDMB have to accept a higher level of sniping, _ad hominems_, dishonest argumentation, and nitpicking, than do Bush-bashers. That’s just how it is. General flow is to bait you until you respond in kind. Then they call for your banning. There are thoughtful and interesting liberals here, but there is also the rest of them. I doubt that is going to change. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/45 "2004-06-24T14:01:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What’s wrong with it? He’s not liberal. Or, more accurately, he is not a Bush-basher. If he agrees not to vote for or support Bush, everything he does would become perfectly acceptable. Are you sure you want to be defending **Milum** here? There are intelligent conservatives on this board–yourself, **Sam Stone** , and even **Starving Artist** , I’d say. I would NOT include **Milum** in this number: he’s gotta be one of the stupidest posters I have ever seen around these parts, and I’m including the Grapist in that assessment. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/46 "2004-06-24T14:02:02Z")
**Starving\_Artist** , kindly point out the post where I called for your banning. I you cannot, please withdraw your claim that I have done so. Also, please stop trying to claim that any objection I may have to your technique of spamming the board with Republican cheerleading is rooted in partisanship. As anyone who has been around here awhile can tell you, I object just as strongly to the spammish offerings of people like **Reeder**. BTW, thanks for the name check. It’s nice to get a little appreciation now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/47 "2004-06-24T14:37:25Z")
Ah, the familiar refrains of the “maligned conservative” song. It’s been nearly a week since I’ve heard it. It never does get tiresome. Did you know when it was released as a single, the flip side was “Ouch! Not so hard!” It’s unfortunate that so often the “maligned conservative” is confounded with “the incredibly stupid line of reasoning,” because then it becomes so much harder to clearly see all the great and completely unfair maligning that we can achieve. Of course, it becomes even more difficult to discern the more that there are conservatives maligning the poor conservatives here. What a conundrum. Hopefully someone will have an epiphany that resolves this paradox. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/48 "2004-06-24T14:46:32Z")
This board needs to continue to have people like **Brutus, Sam Stone, Shodan,** and **Starving Artist** on board. More often than not, I’m in disagreement with them, but having lucid conservatives who outline and explain their perspectives and engage with us in here gives me a better understanding of the thinking of those who do not provide those explanations. If the cost of making them feel that they can exist here, and participate on equal and fair terms in GD and Pit with folks who disagree with them and outnumber them, is to give a little extra leeway to folks like **Milum** and **december** and **SallyStar** (note the continuum), I’m in favor of that. **Milum** , if you’re reading this: you’ll sway more people (not so much your immediate adversaries in any given politicized discussion, but the other folks reading the thread) if you put a bit more into showing you understand the perspectives of the people you’re going up against, can say it back to them in terms they would agree reflects their thinking, rather than just seeking the sarcastic putdown or the parody. That’s a lot more productive than just trying to piss off liberals and other people who don’t agree with you — not that I’m claiming that that’s your conscious intent, which would make the T word applicable, but even if it’s not and simply tends to be the general effect. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/49 "2004-06-24T14:47:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What’s wrong with it? He’s not liberal. Or, more accurately, he is not a Bush-basher. If he agrees not to vote for or support Bush, everything he does would become perfectly acceptable. No, the problem is that \*\*Milum \*\* doesn’t agree to anything - being rational, listening to the opposing argument, posting coherently, presenting actual debates in GD instead of schlock, etc. > [@](#): > > It is simply that conservatives on the SDMB have to accept a higher level of sniping, ad hominems, dishonest argumentation, and nitpicking, than do Bush-bashers. That’s just how it is. I have to agree with you on this, based simply off of sheer numbers. The dog-pilee fares little chance of survival. I greatly admire the conservative dopers who are able to present well-constructed arguments, respond to valid points that they’ve obviously thought about, and do so versus a large opposing contingent. However, I can’t think of a single instance where any of those posters have come running to **Milum** ’s defense. I’d guess it’s because \*\*Milum \*\* insists on holding an indefensible position. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/50 "2004-06-24T15:08:59Z")
I was thinking about it, and I should make clear that there are conservatives here who do post reasonable and well-thought out ideas. I don’t think that they are set upon at all. I think that the foolish ones end up like chum in the water. But props to **pervert** , for example, and his contributions to the thread entitled “Convince me to vote for Kerry” IIRC. He struck me as honestly interested in discussing issues and political positions, and it seemed to me to be a perfectly fine discussion. Contrast that with “Hey gang! What do you think of the latest beheading!” The rest went on to accuse liberals of not caring that an American was beheaded, or at least not caring enough. What a super debate. Or, paraphrasing: “Bill Clinton’s book was poorly reviewed. Does this mean that liberals will now recognize what a bad guy he was? I won’t even read the book it is so boring!” What an intelligent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/51 "2004-06-24T15:30:34Z")
I still don’t know what’s so bad about “troll”. 😕 I mean, ouch. Gol dang, he called me a troll. I guess I’ll go home and blow my own brains out now, rather than face life wearing the scarlet T. Or maybe the ADL can help me with this vicious hate speech. Yeah! Such caustic, scabrous epithet’s have no place in public discourse! Troll indeed! Trolls are people too! We have rights, and feelings, and should be afforded common human dignity. _We shall overcome…_ Ayyyy-men! Ayyyyyy-men! Thank gawd almighty, we trolls are free at last! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/52 "2004-06-24T16:03:26Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > However, I can’t think of a single instance where any of those posters have come running to **Milum** ’s defense. I am, and have. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/53 "2004-06-24T16:09:55Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > The rest went on to accuse liberals of not caring that an American was beheaded, or at least not caring enough. Again, a mischaracterization. What went on was the question of why outrage that would have tended to support the anti-terrorist war proponents wasn’t being expressed, given that so much outrage was expressed over the relatively minor (by comparison) occurrances that happened regarding the Iraqi prisoners. It was noted by some that this made the liberal contingent \*appear \*not to care, but it was never a serious contention of any conservative that I can recall. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/54 "2004-06-24T16:18:08Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I will admit my posts show up a great deal in these threads as, with the exception of a brief post or two by **Milum** , I have been the only conservative voice in the debate…a debate involving usually 12 to 15 liberal posters. I would be more than happy to share the load with other conservative posters, but as we all know, there are only about 7 or 8 of us in the entire SDMB who are willing to come out and post our points of view, and rarely do we all wind up in the same thread at the same time. So it has been pretty much me against everyone else. > > \ > > Finally, in regard to **Milum** , I’m tempted to start a “Save Milum” thread to see if this reprehensible attempt to get him banned when he is always vastly outnumbered and reviled every time he posts can be thwarted. Milum is very satirical and biting in his considerable humor, but what is wrong with that? Many of you here are very aggressive and beligerent and biting in your posts but no one is trying to get you banned. If anything, \*\*Milum \*\*is the conservative version here of Al Franken to the right. He has every right to express his point of view and to ridicule the nature of this board’s left wing posters as they do to those of us on the right all the time. This is not trolling. Trolling is more like what we see when someone new comes on and posts nonsensical words or types in all caps and dares anyone to do anything about it, or insults the SDMB and/or its moderators, etc. Simply posting satirical comments about the ideas and behavior of posters on the other side idealogically does not constitute trolling, or else most of us all over this board would be trolls. > > To those of you who think it’s a bad idea to set the precedent of banning someone for what is essentially posting adverse political opinions in an unusually humorous and effective way, I thank you. Many people in this forum have expressed hope that other posters such as **lekatt** won’t leave because generally it’s a bad idea for the pool of SDMB posters to be reduced. We’re supposed to be celebrating diversity and fighting ignorance here, not banning people whose opinions or style we find offensive. **Starving Artist** , you seem like a smart guy and I’m going to level with you. I don’t want to see **Milum** banned. I love **Milum**. He is in many ways my favorite poster on the entire board. His recent warning have made me very nervous, and if he were actually banned I would be deeply depressed. However, you seem prepared to do the Marvel team up with him, so I feel compelled to warn you, and this has nothing to do with his politics. There are many intelligent and articulate conservative posters on the SDMB, like **Sam Stone, Dewey Cheatum Undhowe, Brutus, Airman Doors,** and so on, but **Milum** is not one of them. **Milum** first came to my attention in a thread where he smugly lectured me on constitutional standing when I was a newly graduated lawyer working as a federal law clerk. This is roughly the equivalent of lecturing a whore on fellatio. Not only that, he was 100% demonstrably wrong. Since then he has lectured me and the other lawyers on the board, conservative and liberal alike, on many issues of law, including the Establisment Clause, Bills of Attainder, Ex Post Facto Laws, the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, and on and on and on, hilariously wrong every time. He has cited the freaking _preamble to the Constitution_ as legal authority. He has smarmily lectured me on the constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness found in the _freaking Declaration of Independence_. Most people who were corrected by a gaggle of unanimous lawyers would knock it off, but **Milum** keeps at it like a champ, and I can say this much for him: he appears to know how to spell the word “law.” After that it goes sharply downhill. It’s not just the lawyers, either: he incorrectly corrects linguists on linguistics, **Qadgop the Mercotan** on medicine, ect. ad nasueum, with the same consdescending tone. He wisely stays out of the pit now because he knows if he does that here he’ll get his ass handed to him. When confronted with evidence that he is unqusetionably full of shit, he will change the subject, tell a bizzare anecdote, or make an even more outrageously incorrect statement replete with multicolors and smileys. I hope they never, ever ban him. Most people youcan count on to be pretty rational, but Jesus Christ, you can never tell what _that_ guy is going to say. It’s like trying to have an intelligent conversation at a dinner party while a crazed syphallitic monkey bounces screaming off the walls flinging shit all over everything. Sure, it’s annoying, but man, is it ever _interesting!_ ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/55 "2004-06-24T16:21:05Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > **Starving\_Artist** , kindly point out the post where I called for your banning. I you cannot, please withdraw your claim that I have done so. Suffering a guilty conscience, are you? If you will go back and read my post you will see I made referrence to the (possible) banning sentiments as follows: “And by pretty much equating me with **Milum** , and since this is a thread in which an attempt is being made to ban **Milum** , I can only assume _they_ would like to see me banned as well.” Note that I did not refer to you specifically anywhere. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Also, please stop trying to claim that any objection I may have to your technique of spamming the board with Republican cheerleading is rooted in partisanship. As anyone who has been around here awhile can tell you, I object just as strongly to the spammish offerings of people like **Reeder**. Your accusation of smammish behavior notwithstanding, your point is noted. > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > BTW, thanks for the name check. It’s nice to get a little appreciation now and then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/56 "2004-06-24T16:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Suffering a guilty conscience, are you? You’re kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/57 "2004-06-24T16:47:23Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > **Starving Artist** , you seem like a smart guy and I’m going to level with you. I don’t want to see **Milum** banned. I love **Milum**. He is in many ways my favorite poster on the entire board. His recent warning have made me very nervous, and if he were actually banned I would be deeply depressed. Thank you for the compliment, and for your well-reasoned post. Your feelings about him and the possibilty of his being banned are exactly the same as mine when I first began to become aware of \*\*Milum \*\*a few days ago. Your very informative second paragraph notwithstanding, he is often on the same side of an issue (the war on terror, liberal spin, the perception of hypocrisy, etc.) that I am. I have found some of his postings to be hilarious, and whether or not he engages with people whose training makes them an expert in areas where he’s just winging it, I don’t think this type of behavior should qualify him to be expelled. These are the factors that cause me to team up with him in some threads and to defend him here. If someone were to challenge me in an area where I had professional training and contest points that were clearly incontestable, I would would be annoyed in the same way as you. But also like you, I wouldn’t feel compelled to call for his banning. > [@pravnik](#): > > However, you seem prepared to do the Marvel team up with him… Well, you know what they say: “Misery loves company.” 😃 And there is always the temptation to join forces with someone who happens to be in agreement with you in a particular thread and who is being set upon by everyone else. > [@pravnik](#): > > When confronted with evidence that he is unqusetionably full of shit, he will change the subject, tell a bizzare anecdote, or make an even more outrageously incorrect statement replete with multicolors and smileys. Of course, there are times when he does this when, in my opinion, he is right on. In these instances of course, I think he’s just this side of Jerry Seinfeld. 😉 > [@pravnik](#): > > I hope they never, ever ban him. And the fact that this is so speaks very well of you. > [@pravnik](#): > > Most people you can count on to be pretty rational, but Jesus Christ, you can never tell what _that_ guy is going to say. It’s like trying to have an intelligent conversation at a dinner party while a crazed syphallitic monkey bounces screaming off the walls flinging shit all over everything. Sure, it’s annoying, but man, is it ever _interesting!_ I agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/58 "2004-06-24T16:50:09Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > You’re kidding, right? Nope. But how about a little exposition? Did I accuse you or not? Or were you in error in calling for my withdrawal of a statement I did not make? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/59 "2004-06-24T17:58:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Nope. But how about a little exposition? Did I accuse you or not? Or were you in error in calling for my withdrawal of a statement I did not make? Yes, you accused me of having a guilty conscience. Over what, I have no idea. No, I don’t have a guilty conscience. Yes, I believe you tried to imply that I was calling for your (and perhaps Milum’s) banning, for no other reason than you don’t like what I have to say to you, and leaving yourself weasel room should anyone call you on it. Anyway, you really shouldn’t be wasting so much of your valuable advertising space replying to anything I might have to say. As you said, I’m “impotent and ineffective”, and thus not worth bothering with. In return, I will cease wasting yours, for now at least. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846/60 "2004-06-24T18:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > given that so much outrage was expressed over the relatively minor (by comparison) occurrances that happened regarding the Iraqi prisoners. Well, if you continue to join **milum** in presenting this false view of the situation, you may continue to receive hostile reactions. In addition to the thousands of people who have been detained for up to 10 months or more, most of whom simply disappeared without any notification to their families that they had been taken, (much in the way that might have disappeared from their families in the days of Hussein)–and of whom the U.S. government concedes that 70% or more were innocent of any crimes, there are the hundreds who have been tortured and humiliated, _and 7 - 30 Iraqis who were murdered_ in U.S. custody. The despicable murder of a single individual by a lawless group does not make seven (at least) murders, hundreds of tortures, and thousands of detentions by a formal government agency “minor (by comparison).” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-clarification-regarding-milum/251846.md?page=4)