# Mods, you are playing their ignorant game if "climate change deniers" is offlimits. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 9, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931 "2012-08-09T03:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/1 "2012-08-09T03:49:27Z")
> **[Why Is It Called Denial? | National Center for Science Education](https://ncse.ngo/why-it-called-denial)** > > There is a debate among those involved in social controversies surrounding climate change about how to refer to the positions that reject, and to people who doubt or deny, the scientific community’s consensus on the answers to the central questions... > [@](#): > > Recognizing that no terminological choice is entirely unproblematic, NCSE — in common with a number of scholarly and journalistic observers of the social controversies surrounding climate change — opts to use the terms “climate changer deniers” and “climate change denial” (where “denial” encompasses unwarranted doubt as well as outright rejection). The terms are intended descriptively, not in any pejorative sense, and are used for the sake of brevity and consistency with a well-established usage in the scholarly and journalistic literature. Well, IIRC even moderators before came to report in other threads that the use of “AGW denier” was kosher as even scientific organizations are realizing that they are encountering the same “logic” as creationists apply to biologists. But it seems that something has changed in this message board: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15364353&postcount=54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15364353&postcount=54) As scientific organizations and even skeptics do not mind the term, it seems odd to jump to justify a censorship that only few of them demand. > [@](#): > > **“Denial” is the term preferred even by many deniers. “I actually like ‘denier.’ That’s closer than skeptic,” says MIT’s Richard Lindzen, one of the most prominent deniers. Steve Milloy, the operator of the climate change denial website [JunkScience.com](http://JunkScience.com), told Popular Science, “Me, I just stick with denier … I’m happy to be a denier.” Minnesotans for Global Warming and other major denier groups go so far as to sing, “I’m a Denier!”.** And I do think the reason is simple, most of the skeptical scientists do realize it is \*\*dumb \*\* what some followers attempt to do: to claim that proponents are just calling them like “holocaust deniers” :rolleyes:, because that is precisely the boiler plate point they what to make, it is an effort to avoid a term that fits and is proper. One more point: As the Aji points in the thread with his taunts that I’m not calling him that in his face, it is clear that even he understands that I’m not calling him a denier in the thread, that he is embracing the ones that show a total disregard for the evidence is not my problem. And he is still calling the proponents of AGW deluded. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/2 "2012-08-09T04:03:39Z")
Any chance the key phrase is “in this discussion”? > [@Noted Climate Change Skeptic Reverses Stance.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noted-climate-change-skeptic-reverses-stance/629940/54): > > **GIGObuster** and **Ají de Gallina** , the use of “denier” and “deluded” is now off-limits \*in this discussion. \*Knock it off and stick to arguing the merits of your positions without getting trying to insult your opponent. > > [/Moderating] (_emphasis added)_ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/3 "2012-08-09T04:07:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And I do think the reason is simple, most of the skeptical scientists do realize it is \*\*dumb \*\* what some followers attempt to do: to claim that proponents are just calling them like “holocaust deniers” :rolleyes:, because that is precisely the boiler plate point they what to make, it is an effort to avoid a term that fits and is proper. Missed the edit, I’m saying there “that is precisely the boiler plate point that they \*\*want \*\*to make,” The attempt to equate “global warming denial” with “holocaust denial” has been noticed before even in this message board and in many other places, it was not mentioned specifically in that thread, but the past efforts shown here and in other places shows that this is precisely why some are complaining about the use of “denier”, IIRC that was branded a silly attempt at equating terms, but somehow this is forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/4 "2012-08-09T04:13:09Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Any chance the key phrase is “in this discussion”? Well if that is the case I would not mind, but this is still odd when I do remember that even moderators did put down the ones that were making hay of their pretended offensiveness at attempting to claim that the denier term is only used for very nefarious insults. It is not, as even the luminaries of the skeptical team do not shy away from the use of the term, it does refer to the reality that almost all scientific results have to be denied to make their points work. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/5 "2012-08-09T06:02:43Z")
The two of you were getting increasingly personal. I took away the favored insults of each of you so that you would spend at least half as much time presenting serious arguments as you did thwacking each other with inflated pig bladders–at least through the end of that thread. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/6 "2012-08-09T06:16:35Z")
So it is an insult, even if the proponents embrace it. And even after it was pointed before it was not. 😕 And still, in the end even he does point out that I do not have the guts to call him that. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/7 "2012-08-09T06:28:28Z")
Forget it, **GIGO**. It’s Chinatown. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/8 "2012-08-09T06:38:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Forget it, **GIGO**. It’s Chinatown. Well, the thing is I did not imagine that until recently it was the way the “cookie was crumbling” . It was until very recently that the idea of some contrarians to soil their opponents by claiming that “denier” is an insult should be dismissed, in the case of the not lamented to be banned PopTech, the moderators told him that it was really silly to make “denier” an insult, no matter how much he stomped his feet. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12638047&postcount=52](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12638047&postcount=52) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/9 "2012-08-09T10:13:50Z")
Just to keep this discussion in ATMB and out of the thread in question: > [@Noted Climate Change Skeptic Reverses Stance.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/noted-climate-change-skeptic-reverses-stance/629940/59): > > But “denier” is a completely correct and accurate descriptive. There is simply no better word for those who reject good science, save for the strongly related “denialist”. Would there be similar objections if we called creatards deniers? The point of the Mod ruling had nothing to do with the general meaning or use of the words in question. They were prohibited in that thread because they were being used as epithets to ratchet up the personal nature of the feud. No ruling has been yet issued regarding the use of those words in other threads. As a separate note, anyone who employs the word “creatard” toward any poster outside The BBQ Pit will be Warned for direct personal insult. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/10 "2012-08-09T10:28:19Z")
Ah. Fair enough, I suppose, although I do feel that creatard is one of those lovely words it will be hard to give up on. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Batfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Batfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batfish)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/11 "2012-08-09T11:24:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Ah. Fair enough, I suppose, although I do feel that creatard is one of those lovely words it will be hard to give up on. ☹ Yeah, it rolls off the tongue, like ‘feminazi’. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/12 "2012-08-09T12:19:24Z")
“Argue the issue, not the poster.” That’s how we roll here on many issues, especially in Great Debates. It’s not supposed to be a personal slanging match, though there are other places besides GD where you can do that. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/13 "2012-08-09T13:01:50Z")
Could you clarify that a bit–you’re post could also be read to sound as if you’re inclined towards a somewhat expanded view of T&D’s “in that thread” limitation. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/14 "2012-08-09T13:36:51Z")
While this matter is being debated in moderator-land for posterity’s sake, it is my humble opinion that: Denialism is an accurate and useful term to describe positions that 1) fall way outside overwhelming scientific or historic consensus, and 2) rely on willful ignorance of evidence and conspiracy theorizing. I’m not sure there could be any description as accurate as “denialist” for a person who denies in the face of massive scientific evidence that HIV causes AIDS, or waves off graphic evidence of major declines in infectious disease following the advent of vaccination. “Denialist” may have a pejorative air to it, but it seems ridiculous to me to ban accurate characterizations because of the possibility of hurt feelings. “Pro-abortion” is a term I find grossly inaccurate and a distortion of my beliefs, but I can’t see banning that one either. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/15 "2012-08-09T14:08:57Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Could you clarify that a bit–you’re post could also be read to sound as if you’re inclined towards a somewhat expanded view of T&D’s “in that thread” limitation. The ruling on “denier” (and “deluded”) applied only to that thread. “Attack the argument, not the poster” is a good general guideline that we rely on in GD. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/16 "2012-08-09T14:24:15Z")
So, **tomndedb** isn’t a dinier that dinier isn’t generally an insult. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/17 "2012-08-09T14:28:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, **tomndedb** isn’t a dinier that dinier isn’t generally an insult. Mods aren’t subject to the rules that they make up on the fly and selectively apply. So the question is muti. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/18 "2012-08-09T14:30:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Mods aren’t subject to the rules that they make up on the fly and selectively apply. **tomndebb** was directing the discussion and telling people not to insult each other. We do both those things all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/19 "2012-08-09T14:51:48Z")
I don’t care about the word “denier” that much, apparently it makes people who use it incredibly happy. I’ll repeat, however, what I said on the thread and it is that such a term is not good for debating, even if we accepted it was 100% true. It is pejorative, even if true. Pejorative terms are frowned upon in any rational debate, even if true. This whole “it’s true so I’ll use it” doesn’t hold up in real life or debating. Do you tell your people on the street “dude, you’re ugly” because it’s true? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931/20 "2012-08-09T15:04:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **tomndebb** was directing the discussion and telling people not to insult each other. We do both those things all the time. Yes, that has been mentioned before. But it has no bearing on John’s post or my response. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mods-you-are-playing-their-ignorant-game-if-climate-change-deniers-is-offlimits/630931.md?page=2)