# Mohammed and the mountain **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 20, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080 "2002-12-20T19:08:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/1 "2002-12-20T19:08:27Z")
You know the saying “If Mohammed won’t come to the mountain, then the mountain will come to Mohammed” What’s the origins of that saying? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/2 "2002-12-20T19:50:54Z")
I’m almost certain that there is a hadith of Mohammed moving a mountain, but I Googled for it, and I might be totally insane, because I couldn’t find any evidence of this. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/3 "2002-12-20T20:01:22Z")
Take a look at the explanation on this page: [http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin\_board/6/messages/835.html](http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/6/messages/835.html) > [@](#): > > The saying has been traced back in English to ‘Essays,’ (1625) by English philosopher Frances Bacon (1561-1626). It was included in John Ray’s book of English proverbs in 1678…From “Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings” (1996) by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996). I’m not sure where Bacon got the story, though. ---
**Author:** ![martin\_ibn\_martin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@martin\_ibn\_martin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martin_ibn_martin)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/4 "2002-12-20T20:07:38Z")
I must admit to having no idea. A word search of the Hadith Database comes up with nothing connected. [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html) I may never sleeo again Martin ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/5 "2002-12-20T20:26:25Z")
Also note that the OP has it backwards: IF THE MOUNTAIN WILL NOT COME TO MOHAMMED, MOHAMMED WILL GO TO THE MOUNTAIN. Most people get it wrong, assuming that it means “you do what you have to do.” As written, however, it’s about acceding to the inevitable. Mountains don’t come when you call them. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/6 "2002-12-20T20:47:45Z")
I’ve heard it like the OP. If Mohammed can’t go to the mountain, the mountain will come to Mohammed. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/7 "2002-12-20T20:56:58Z")
Funny, I’ve never heard it like the OP. It’s always along the lines of “Well, since the mountain won’t come to Mohammad, Mohammed’s going to have to go to the mountain.” ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/8 "2002-12-20T22:30:38Z")
Origen (No cite available, source is rag-bag memory): This has nothing to do with the Prophet Mohammed. There was a fakir or entertainer named Mohammed that claimed he could move a mountain; perhaps he told the king so. King calls bluff, entertainer prays mightily but nothing happens, entertainer says “If mountain will not come…” and splits. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/9 "2002-12-21T01:49:43Z")
To the **OP**. The origin of your saying is probably somewhere in the 20th Century. People kinda forgot what the original was. If you Google the phrase “Mohammed won’t come” you get 105 hits. If you Google the phrase “Mountain won’t come” you get 411 hits. So one might infer that the original wording/meaning of the phrase from the 17th century still holds sway. But, alas, it might just mean that many sites have correctly copied the phrase from the original. It’s not unusual for sayings/proverbs to be flip-flopped over the centuries. Language evolves. In this case, _for the worse_ I mean, **why** would the mountain come to Mohamed? Neither Jesus nor Mohamed performed stupid stunts. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/10 "2002-12-21T02:18:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*I mean, **why** would the mountain come to Mohamed? Neither Jesus nor Mohamed performed stupid stunts. \*\* Well there is precedent for this sort of thing among the world’s great religions. From this page, [http://www.ashtangayogacenter.com/hanuman.html](http://www.ashtangayogacenter.com/hanuman.html) > [@](#): > > [Indrajit] attacked Rama’s army in his invisible form and cast a spell of seeming death over them. > > Only one herb could revive the army and it grew far away on the Mountain of Healing Herbs in the Himalayas. Hanuman leaped towards the mountain, flying at such tremendous speed that he resembled a comet, and the herbs on the mountain were afraid and hid themselves inside. Unable to see the herbs, **Hanuman took the entire mountain top and flew back towards Lanka.** ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/11 "2002-12-21T03:18:42Z")
Something is going on, this is the second time this week I remember the possible answer, but I cannot find a cite! Yes, I agree too with **MaryEFoo** , I remember reading that this saying was actually attributed to an unsuccessful holy man whose name was also Muhammad. Many new Christian religious sources are using this saying in a mistaken attempt to discredit Islam by attributing it to the first Muhammad. With some degree of success I see. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/12 "2002-12-21T13:27:59Z")
To discredit? Why would such an incredible miracle discredit? ---
**Author:** ![PosterChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e274bd/32.png) [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/13 "2002-12-21T14:43:18Z")
I’d only heard it in the order of the OP, but I heard it as “must” not “will” and used as a derivative of faith. To move a mountain for Mohammed kind-of-thing, but more colloquially as to do a big/tough job. The tales of the non-prophet Mohammed sound like stories made up to “explain” it after the fact. > [@](#): > > **samclem** : Neither Jesus nor Mohamed performed stupid stunts. I guess it depends on which stunts you think are stupid. 😉 PC ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/14 "2002-12-21T18:10:32Z")
Um, is it in the Koran? Or the serious commentary? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/15 "2002-12-21T21:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*To discredit? Why would such an incredible miracle discredit? \*\* Uh, Libertarian, the miracle failed. Or, is the lesson we get from the saying that a religious man could be pragmatic? An incredible miracle among extreme fundamentalists perhaps? While searching for cites, I found a couple of Christian places that in essence were saying: “look at that silly Mohamed, tried to move a mountain and failed! Therefore, Islam is false!” Of course, that cheap shot against Islam could be more effective if it was THE Mohammed that tried to attempt the move. The guy from the saying had no direct access to the holy U-haul. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/16 "2002-12-21T21:43:09Z")
CHIASMUS IN HISTORY & HISTORY IN CHIASMUS: On January 7, 1618, Francis Bacon becomes Lord Chancellor of England. Bacon is the first English writer to use the word “essay” to describe a short piece of writing (the first ever was Montaigne, in French). In his “On Boldness” essay, Bacon describes how the Islamic prophet Mahomet (in the original English spelling) predicted he could make a distant hill come to him. People from all around assembled to see the miracle. When it didn’t happen, according to Bacon, the prophet appeared unfazed and said: ``` "If the hill will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet will go to the hill." ``` This appears to be the origin of the popular saying, “If the mountain won’t come to Muhammad, Muhammad will go to the mountain.” American quotation scholar Bergen Evans says, “Bacon speaks as though the story were well known, but it cannot be traced beyond this passage.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/17 "2002-12-21T22:30:24Z")
Ah ha! Thanks **x-ray vision** for bringing home the Bacon! \ With the old spelling of Mohammed I got: [http://www.bartleby.com/81/11741.html](http://www.bartleby.com/81/11741.html) E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. > [@](#): > > If the mountain will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet must go to the mountain. If what I seek will not come to me without my stir, I must exert myself to obtain it; if we cannot do as we wish, we must do as we can. When Mahomet first announced his system, the Arabs demanded supernatural proofs of his commission. “Moses and Jesus,” said they, “wrought miracles in testimony of their divine authority; and if thou art indeed the prophet of God, do so likewise.” To this Mahomet replied, “It would be tempting God to do so, and bring down His anger, as in the case of Pharaoh.” Not satisfied with this answer, he commanded Mount Safa to come to him, and when it stirred not at his bidding, exclaimed, “God is merciful. Had it obeyed my words, it would have fallen on us to our destruction. I will therefore go to the mountain, and thank God that He has had mercy on a stiffnecked generation.” Well, It looks everybody, including me, was not quite right: On context, it looks like the point was to show the doubters that it is wrong to tempt God on doing stunts like that one. But **MaryEFoo** proves I did not imagine that other explanation. Bacon’s tale looks to be a very isolated version of the saying. In light of the current findings, I say that it is likely that other writers (Bacon included) changed the original tale, and it’s meaning. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/18 "2002-12-22T03:32:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Bacon’s tale looks to be a very isolated version of the saying. In light of the current findings, I say that it is likely that other writers (Bacon included) changed the original tale, and it’s meaning. Could you explain your statement further? I don’t understand. **What** was the original tale? Where did it come from? Can you give me a cite where I can read the original tale before Bacon used it? And I don’t mean Brewer’s take on it. > [@](#): > > But **MaryEFoo** proves I did not imagine that other explanation. She/he proved it _how_? No one has yet to produce a cite prior to Bacon. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/19 "2002-12-22T03:52:57Z")
I read an essay on Islam written by James Michener in the 1950s, a byproduct of the research he put into his novel on Afghanistan, _Caravans_. (Michener was quite favorable toward Islam and recommended Americans learn more about it.) He debunked the popular notion that this saying had anything to do with the Prophet Muhammad. According to Michener, the “Muhammad” in the saying was a Turkish trickster in the 15th century, IIRC. The sort of trickster featured in the popular folk tales of Nasreddin Hoja and Joha. Considering that the story is completely unfounded in the lore concerning the Prophet Muhammad, it cannot be used to discredit Islam. My hypothesis to link the two competing explanations: Somehow Francis Bacon heard of the Turkish trickster story. Perhaps it had been passed along orally as a joke from English seamen who had been to Turkey. There was beginning to be commercial traffic between England and Turkey in Bacon’s day. Or perhaps it was passed along secondhand via the French, since France had had diplomatic and commercial relations with Turkey since the 15th century. However it reached Bacon, he mistook the “Mahomet” in the tale for the Prophet Muhammad, and proceeded to put his own spin on it. (Highly learned in the classics he may have been, but a scholar of Islam he was most assuredly not.) What I would like to verify is the anecdote I saw in _Ripley’s Believe It or Not_ that the Prophet Muhammad loved cats so much, that once when a cat fell asleep on his wide sleeve, when he had to get up he cut off his sleeve rather than disturb the sleeping kitty. I’ve never seen a hadith for this one, either! See, folks, “Muhammad” is the most common name in the world. It’s always necessary to specify _which_ Muhammad. When Muslims mention their Prophet, they always utter a special formula of benediction on him. This prevents confusion with anyone else named Muhammad. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mohammed-and-the-mountain/144080/20 "2002-12-22T05:07:59Z")
Well **samclem** , I used only an educated guess based on this: Two unrelated persons, read an essay debunking this Mohammed conection, they had the same basic recollection. I was just guessing **MaryEFoo** had the same propensity I have for seeking debunking info! Thank heaven **Jomo Mojo** showed up 🆒. We were hanging on a limb.