# Molesting Children Always Wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027 "2003-08-18T19:44:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tanookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/48db29/32.png) [@tanookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanookie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/21 "2003-08-19T16:46:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\* > The older boys firmly believe that it is for the children’s own good. And in the long run the younger boys don’t seem to suffer poor consequences in terms of living a happy life within their community. And from the sound of it, the boys in fact were not actually beaten. The fear of punishment and the desire to become men was enough. > > Because of the way we view sex in our society, this initiation might cause serious self esteem issues or highly abnormal possibly risky sexual behavior. So it’s easy for us to project that onto them. But that doesn’t seem to be the case for them. > > On a certain level I’m always opposed to any coercive threatening behavior, but the fact remains that many societies as a whole threaten or beat their children to get them to conform to societal norms. \*\* I read the article and understand that given how they believe the body physically matures these practices make sense and are normal for them. As an outsider I see these rituals as strange but I can’t condemn them all as deviants. I just wanted to say though that my mother and father used the same rationale of ‘for my own good’ and ‘I didn’t seem to suffer too much in the long run’ as reasons why my childhood abuse wasn’t really abusive. Just because someone doesn’t turn into a deviant after suffering molestation does not mean it was good for them. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/22 "2003-08-19T20:06:28Z")
Beaten or threatened with it, that’s coercive force. Which makes it rape. Fuck me if I’m unenlightened for not thinking it’s perfectly acceptable behavior because it’s a ‘different culture.’ I tend to condemn things like cutting off a clitoris and ‘honor killing’ the same way. I can live with being the kind of ‘bad person’ who’d like the world to exist without those things. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/23 "2003-08-19T20:33:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tanookie \* > Just because someone doesn’t turn into a deviant after suffering molestation does not mean it was good for them. True, there’s a lot to be considered and I didn’t mean to make an exhaustive list. I don’t really mean to justify their behavior either, as I don’t completely understand it and I am hardly qualified even if I wanted to. And like I said, I’m generally opposed to coercion in any form. However, my reaction is not one of immediate indignation and disgust. I see many shades of gray here and an opportunity for people to understand our own cultural norms a little better. **catsix** I don’t think anyone accusing you of being bad. Just playing fast and loose with your language. The real question is what’s to be done about it. I don’t think anyone should coerce anyone to do anything ever. But that’s not a very practical viewpoint. Should we start imprisoning all of these 14 year old boys that coerce 9 years old to have sex with them? Basically, that would mean imprisoning the entire population of men over 13 since the older men would have already done the same thing as well. Would that make you feel better? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/24 "2003-08-19T20:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Taking into account what different cultures do is one thing, if you’re talking about whether to bow to, shake hands, or kiss someone in greeting. > > It’s a whole different ballgame when you get into rape, child molestation, assault. Then it becomes moral relativism. \*\* Why? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/25 "2003-08-19T20:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Should we start imprisoning all of these 14 year old boys that coerce 9 years old to have sex with them? I’m quite certain that’s a crime in most jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/26 "2003-08-20T18:19:37Z")
Giving oral sex to babies and young kids to calm them down? YUCK!!! That’s just not right. And how does it come them down. Stick a bottle in their mouth for goodness sake. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/27 "2003-08-20T20:21:51Z")
And what if, for instance, there is a “culture” that consists only of a family on a deserted island, and the “majority”, i.e. the powerful adults, think it’s okay for force themselves on the children? Does that make it okay? Any breach of freedom, even for the very young, is unacceptable in any culture (except in emergencies or breaches of the law.) If it were a mutually acceptable act, and the act didnt contain any unforeseen consequences for the child (for instance, intercourse,) that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/28 "2003-08-20T21:04:37Z")
It is perhaps important to note that moral relativism, specifically from the view of cultures as the dominant determinant of moral behavior, dictates that there is more or less no higher morality than that of the culture. Thus, when making moral pronouncements, one must implicitly or explicitly reference a culture. Given this, there is no contradiction in saying, “They are right” and “I disagree with them and I am right” because the correct version of the sentences is, “They are right [to them]” and “They are wrong [to us].” I see no reason why relativism should imply some sort of stasis of judgment or action. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/29 "2003-08-20T21:47:10Z")
Therefore, erislover, you are of the opinion that there is nothing inherently and necessarily wrong in forcing nine-year-old girls into being sex toys. It is a logical conclusion to your statement. The “wrong” is merely a matter of social convention. So you’d have no real problem with slavery either. Any repugnance you might feel towards it is mere social convention. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/30 "2003-08-20T22:21:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\* > Here’s a link to Tars Tarkas’s rememberance. > > [http://icarus.ubetc.buffalo.edu/users/apy106/cultures/sambia.html](http://icarus.ubetc.buffalo.edu/users/apy106/cultures/sambia.html) > \*\* Thanks for that link; every time I saw the title of this thread I had a vague memory of this tribe. I have no idea where I read about them; probably not in my single freshman anthro class in college. One funny thing I remember about the Sambia that isn’t mentioned in the link (unless I missed it, I skimmed through it kinda quick) is that when it comes time for the young men or boys to be told about how they must have sex with the women, they react in sheer horror at the disgusting thought. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/31 "2003-08-21T00:55:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > Therefore, erislover, you are of the opinion that there is nothing inherently and necessarily wrong in forcing nine-year-old girls into being sex toys. That’s right, there are no inherent wrongs. > [@](#): > > The “wrong” is merely a matter of social convention. I’m not a _cultural_ relativist personally, I’m a little more extreme, but yes, for cultural relativists that’s true. Some places that address moral relativism, and some relevant quotes about it: > [@](#): > > _From the [IEP](http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/r/relativi.htm)_ > Although there are many different kinds of relativism, they all have two features in common.[ol][li]They all assert that one thing (e.g. moral values, beauty, knowledge, taste, or meaning) is relative to some particular framework or standpoint (e.g. the individual subject, a culture, an era, a language, or a conceptual scheme).They all deny that any standpoint is uniquely privileged over all others.[/ol][/li]_From [someone’s notes, apparently](http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sdarwall/361me497.txt)_: > > II Some initial distinctions: > A. agent’s relativism vs. appraiser’s relativism. The former holds that whether an agent acts rightly or wrongly can only be assessed by applying standards that the agent accepts or is committed to accepting. In the sense we are interested in, this is not really relativistic, since it holds there to be absolute facts about whether, say, Jones acted rightly or wrongly. It just makes that depend on Jones’s own standards. The more interesting relativism for our purposes is appraiser’s (or appraiser’s group) relativism. This holds that the validity or truth of an ethical belief can only be assessed by using the standards of the person (or of the group of the person) who holds the belief–i.e. who makes the ethical appraisal. [**erl** ’s note on this source: the source goes on to critique moral relativism by ignoring the IEP’s second point and presuming a level of moral analysis that is independent of any particular moral frame; I agree if we reject the second point moral relativism is fundamentally untenable.] > [@](#): > > So you’d have no real problem with slavery either. Why would you say that? I might have a very big problem with slavery. My justifications for this simply stop at the highest moral-epistemological level possible, which may be, in this case, society’s norms or customs. > [@](#): > > Any repugnance you might feel towards it is mere social convention. And? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/32 "2003-08-21T02:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\* > Why would you say that? I might have a very big problem with slavery. My justifications for this simply stop at the highest moral-epistemological level possible, which may be, in this case, society’s norms or customs.And? \*\* I, on the other hand, do not think that “morality”, where it exists, stops at the cultural level. And we can’t agree to disagree: you’re wrong 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027/33 "2003-08-21T06:45:17Z")
" And in the long run the younger boys don’t seem to suffer poor consequences in terms of living a happy life within their community." I see this kind of statement a wee bit too often for my liking with these kinds of issues. Given how hard it generally is for many people to talk about what we would legally define as sexual abuse even in cultures that have repudiated it, I think its awfully premature to be too confident about these kinds of statements. Otara [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/molesting-children-always-wrong/196027.md?page=1)