# Mollie Tibbetts missing college student (allegedly) killed by illegal alien **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030 "2018-08-22T06:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/201 "2018-08-24T01:48:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s fantastic. Here, read this (from [one of the studies under discussion](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1745-9125.12175)): The abstract for that cite, that again, YOU posted, says this: > [@](#): > > The results from fixed‐effects regression models reveal that undocumented immigration does not increase violence. Rather, the relationship between undocumented immigration and violent crime is generally negative, although not significant in all specifications Are you just messing with us now, or what? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/202 "2018-08-24T01:49:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m comfortable in saying that the cite that YOU provided says: > > Now, if you think that is incorrect, then why would you cite it? That doesn’t make sense to me. Because it highlights my point that there hasn’t been much research on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/203 "2018-08-24T01:51:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Because it highlights my point that there hasn’t been much research on this topic. If that were the case, I would expect the article to say it. I can’t find where they say there hasn’t been much research on this topic. I DO see where they say there “aren’t readily available nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status” But statistics are not the same as research, are they? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/204 "2018-08-24T01:58:28Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If that were the case, I would expect the article to say it. I can’t find where they say there hasn’t been much research on this topic. I DO see where they say there “aren’t readily available nationwide crime statistics broken down by immigration status” > > But statistics are not the same as research, are they? It says: > [@](#): > > There are not readily available nationwide statistics on all crimes committed by immigrants in the country illegally. Researchers have provided estimates through statistical modeling or by extrapolating from smaller samples. One such study backs the president’s claim, but several others support Sanders’ statement. That is, I believe, the current extent of the research on the subject: very limited (“one such study” + “several others” = not a lot of studies) and somewhat conflicted. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/205 "2018-08-24T02:02:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That is, I believe, the current extent of the research on the subject: very limited (“one such study” + “several others” = not a lot of studies) and somewhat conflicted. You can “believe” whatever you want. I base my thoughts on actual things, like the research YOU cited, which says: > [@](#): > > The results from fixed‐effects regression models reveal that undocumented immigration does not increase violence. Rather, the relationship between undocumented immigration and violent crime is generally negative, although not significant in all specifications ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/206 "2018-08-24T02:12:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You can “believe” whatever you want. > > I base my thoughts on actual things, like the research YOU cited, which says: You still haven’t grasped my point, have you? I wasn’t making the argument that illegal immigrants are more violent / criminal than natural-born citizens (I think the limited information available on the subject is conflicting). I was making the point that it was an area that has scant research. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/207 "2018-08-24T02:16:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You still haven’t grasped my point, have you? I wasn’t making the argument that illegal immigrants are more violent / criminal than natural-born citizens (I think the limited information available on the subject is conflicting). I was making the point that it was an area that has scant research. If you are trying to make the point that it is an area that has scant research, why do you keep citing research that shows conclusions in that area? Every cite you make to research in that area weakens your argument that “it is an area that has scant research” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/208 "2018-08-24T02:19:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If you are trying to make the point that it is an area that has scant research, why do you keep citing research that shows conclusions in that area? > > Every cite you make to research in that area weakens your argument that “it is an area that has scant research” I’m pretty sure every cite I’ve made has acknowledged or alluded to that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/209 "2018-08-24T02:24:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m pretty sure every cite I’ve made has acknowledged or alluded to that fact. I especially like [this cite](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1745-9125.12175) which states: > [@](#): > > Indeed, in a recent meta‐analysis of the 51 macro‐level immigration–crime studies conducted between 1994 and 2014, not one was aimed at explicitly examining unauthorized immigration flows (Ousey and Kubrin, 2017) and: > [@](#): > > To date, however, the literature currently lacks a longitudinal assessment of the consequences of undocumented immigration for violent crime (but see Light, Miller, and Kelly, 2017, for an examination of drug and alcohol crimes) But then goes on to say: > [@](#): > > We seek to fill this gap by providing the first longitudinal empirical analysis of the macro‐level relationship between undocumented immigration and violent crime. In combining newly developed estimates of the unauthorized population with multiple data sources to capture the criminal, socioeconomic, and demographic context of all 50 states and Washington, DC, from 1990 to 2014, we use fixed‐effects regression models to examine the effect of increased unauthorized immigration on violent crime rates And they conclude that: > [@](#): > > Our findings suggest that undocumented immigration over this period is generally associated with decreasing violent crime. The negative association between unauthorized immigration and violence is evident in both police reports and victimization data Remember, you cited this study for some reason. Why was that again? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/210 "2018-08-24T05:30:56Z")
Hey **Ditka** , while the research is conflicted about whether or not illegal immigrants commit far less crime than native citizens, you know who commits _lots_ of crimes? Black people! So to go back to that skittles metaphor, it’s like illegal immigrants are a huge bowl of skittles with a tiny number of poison skittles, and black people are a huge bowl of skittles with a tiny, but substantially larger number of poison skittles. Leaving aside logistical difficulties, does it follow that we should deport all the black people? Inquiring minds wish to know. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/211 "2018-08-24T05:43:06Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Hey **Ditka** , while the research is conflicted about whether or not illegal immigrants commit far less crime than native citizens, you know who commits _lots_ of crimes? Black people! > > So to go back to that skittles metaphor, it’s like illegal immigrants are a huge bowl of skittles with a tiny number of poison skittles, and black people are a huge bowl of skittles with a tiny, but substantially larger number of poison skittles. > > Leaving aside logistical difficulties, does it follow that we should deport all the black people? > > Inquiring minds wish to know. 🙂 We don’t have any mechanism for deporting American citizens, at least so far as I know. So no, it does not follow. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/212 "2018-08-24T05:45:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > … Remember, you cited this study for some reason. Why was that again? See post #206. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/213 "2018-08-24T06:07:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We don’t have any mechanism for deporting American citizens, at least so far as I know. So no, it does not follow. I just said leaving aside the logistical difficulties, and given that your main counterargument is logistical difficulties, if we could solve those, should we deport all the black people? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/214 "2018-08-24T06:08:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > See post #206. So that was an argument from ignorance, that figures… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/215 "2018-08-24T06:25:24Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I just said leaving aside the logistical difficulties, and given that your main counterargument is logistical difficulties, if we could solve those, should we deport all the black people? No and it’s not “logistical difficulties” that cause me to object to the deportation of citizens. It’s not that we don’t have enough buses or planes or ICE agents. It’s the legal ramifications. Citizens were either born here or went through the legal process to make this their homeland. Either way, at that point, there’s nowhere to deport them to. They aren’t visitors or uninvited trespassers from some other country. They’re citizens. There’s no legal option to deport them. If they violate the law, we can incarcerate them or punish them in various other ways, but “deportation” is a response reserved for non-citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/216 "2018-08-24T07:44:06Z")
There’s a lot to discuss about immigration policy. What should our policy be? How do we create a policy that controls the border while at the same time recognizing that potions of our economy seem dependent on cheap migrant labor, particularly the agricultural sector, but also construction and restaurant work? We can even discuss crime as it relates to illegal immigration, though it seems that there is no correlation. It’s a difficult topic and requires far more study and expertise than anyone on this board is really capable of bringing to the table. But one thing is clear. Poor Molly Tibbet’s tragic death has nothing to do with any rational debate. The only thing it shows is that some men will act violently towards perceived rejection from women, something that was never in doubt. Again the exploitation of this woman’s death to stir up race hatred is disgusting and shameful, especially since the assholes doing it are acting against the express desires of Molly Tibbet’s family. But it will be effective, because people suck. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/217 "2018-08-24T16:14:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I favor deporting more illegal immigrants because I think that will quantifiably lead to fewer rapes and homicides of American citizens by illegal immigrants. To put it another way, you’re saying it’s important that only American citizens get to rape and murder American citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/218 "2018-08-24T16:27:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I favor deporting more illegal immigrants because I think that will quantifiably lead to fewer rapes and homicides of American citizens by illegal immigrants. If you deported American men you would get the same result. In fact you’d prevent even more crime than by deporting immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/219 "2018-08-24T16:34:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you deported American men you would get the same result. In fact you’d prevent even more crime than by deporting immigrants. Well, not exactly. First off, my favored policy had to do with “illegal immigrants” specifically, not “immigrants” generally. Secondly, I don’t see how deporting American men would “lead to fewer rapes and homicides of American citizens _by illegal immigrants_”. Thirdly, in your first sentence you say “the same result” and then immediately contradict yourself by changing to “even more crime” in the second sentence. But none of that is terribly relevant for this simple reason: American men have not broken the law to enter the country illegally. Illegal immigrants have. That makes them deserving of deportation while American men are not. Do you understand this? Do you agree with it? Besides, it would require a massive change in our legal framework, and probably the legal framework of wherever you imagine we’d deport American men to. No such obstacle exists to deporting illegal immigrants. I vote we start with the illegals. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/220 "2018-08-24T16:38:08Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > To put it another way, you’re saying it’s important that only American citizens get to rape and murder American citizens? No, I’m saying it’s important to take reasonable steps, in accordance with our laws and values, to reduce the number of American citizens that get raped / murdered. ETA: BTW, I never saw the “bonus cite” you were going to offer in post #191. Was that an inadvertent omission or something else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=12)