# Mollie Tibbetts missing college student (allegedly) killed by illegal alien **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030 "2018-08-22T06:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/221 "2018-08-24T16:41:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I’m saying it’s important to take reasonable steps, in accordance with our laws and values, to reduce the number of American citizens that get raped / murdered. Is it only important to you that American citizens stop getting raped / murdered? What about green card holders, or students on a student visa, or visitors to our great nation? What if the illegal immigrants only raped / murdered OTHER illegal immigrants? Would that be okay? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/222 "2018-08-24T16:48:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, not exactly. If your goal is to decrease crime then what I said holds true. I am not pretending that you can legally deport American citizens nor am I suggesting we try. But if you want to reduce crime then getting rid of American citizens would drop the crime rate faster than getting rid of illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/223 "2018-08-24T16:59:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I’m saying it’s important to take reasonable steps, in accordance with our laws and values, to reduce the number of American citizens that get raped / murdered. > > ETA: BTW, I never saw the “bonus cite” you were going to offer in post #191. Was that an inadvertent omission or something else? But are we interested in reducing the “crime rate” or only the total number of crimes. Because what we are seeing is that the inclusion of more immigrants has no effect on the crime rate, yes some of the immigrants will commit crimes so the overall number of crimes will go up, but on the other hand there will be more people in the US, so the proportion of people who are victims of crime will stay steady. Also probably the safety of an individual girl in the US will also stay steady, because while it is true that there are more people to commit crimes, there are also more people to act as potential victims. So for every white girl in Iowa that is raped by an illegal immigrant, there is probably a white girl in Iowa who is saved because a particular rapist decided to go after a Hispanic girl instead. Does this help explain why the deport as many people as possible to eliminate crime is stupid? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/224 "2018-08-24T17:08:25Z")
Maybe just deport American men? Let’s not be too hasty, here. No reason to reject a bold new idea simply because its nuts. Clearly, we must exempt legislators, law enforcement personnel, servicemembers, business leaders and rich people in general. How about this? Of the remaining eligible, perhaps a system of behavioral restraints? If an American man has a female volunteer who is willing to monitor and correct his behavior in an on-going role. Preference would naturally focus on such women who interact on a daily basis, as they are clearly the best informed. Such a responsibility will require reporting and updating. Perhaps on a yearly basis, say the anniversary of some important date. Of the remaining pool of candidates who do not have such sponsorship, the question then becomes “Who would have them?” Or “us”, as the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/225 "2018-08-24T17:16:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is it only important to you that American citizens stop getting raped / murdered? > > What about green card holders, or students on a student visa, or visitors to our great nation? > > What if the illegal immigrants only raped / murdered OTHER illegal immigrants? Would that be okay? No. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/226 "2018-08-24T17:24:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No. But you seem so concerned about the welfare and safety of American citizens, and no concern for illegal immigrants. Why would you care if they rape / murder each other? Plus, that’s less people that need to be transported out of the country. It’s win/win for you. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/227 "2018-08-24T18:07:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I wanted to explore his attitudes about immigration a bit further, to find out if he was part of the “Abolish ICE” crowd or not. Which had about zip to do with the price of tea in China. > [@](#): > > I admit my question to him was a bit of an aside, but I don’t think it was a “dodge” because he didn’t even ask me a question. It was certainly a way of failing to address the effect of his _statement_ on the argument you’d been making, while trying to take the debate in a new and unrelated direction. > [@](#): > > Thanks for your explanation on the numbers. I don’t mind guesswork, just wanted to know where it was coming from. As for “white male American Skittles should have you running for the border”: There’s another group of male American Skittles you’re excluding here that are even more dangerous, but setting that aside for a moment, my first thought was “run for the border? which border? where would I run to?”. I don’t think there’s another country on earth that can provide me the same level & type of freedom and economic opportunity as America. Anyhoo, your professed concern about the dangers posed by immigrants of any sort can now be discounted as meaningless blather. You aren’t particularly concerned about the threat posed by white American males, therefore. > [@](#): > > I don’t want to run away from it, although I would like to see it be a less violent place. Glad to have a new ally in the fight for gun control and confiscation. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/228 "2018-08-24T18:09:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But you seem so concerned about the welfare and safety of American citizens, and no concern for illegal immigrants. Why would you care if they rape / murder each other? Plus, that’s less people that need to be transported out of the country. > > It’s win/win for you. I’m most concerned about the welfare and safety of myself and my family and friends. Next is probably the members of various communities I’m a member of, neighbors, etc. Moving further down the scale are probably “my fellow Americans” and past that would be citizens of other nations, probably prioritizing allies over hostile nations. It’s not that I have “no concern” for them, but I readily admit it’s not my top priority, and I don’t want it to be the top priority of my government. That being said, the world would be a better place if they didn’t rape / murder anyone, and that goes for Syrians and Venezuelans and French people too. I favor reducing rape and murder everywhere, but I recognize that I have only limited and indirect influence of such things here in this country, and significantly less in other countries. If they do it here in the USA, I hope our government captures and punishes them appropriately. If they do it in other countries, I hope that the governments of those countries do likewise. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/229 "2018-08-24T18:12:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … Glad to have a new ally in the fight for gun control and confiscation. 😉 I think it’s fair to say that we differ significantly on what firearm laws will serve to make this country a less violent place. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/230 "2018-08-24T18:18:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I’m saying it’s important to take reasonable steps, in accordance with our laws and values, to reduce the number of American citizens that get raped / murdered. I’m sincerely glad you want to reduce the number of rape victims, but I’m curious about the values part. What are “our” values vis-a-vis rape/rape prevention? Also, to clarify, you only want to prevent rape and murder among US citizens? Permanent legal residents, temporary residents (e.g., student visas), and illegal immigrants are all on their own? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/231 "2018-08-24T18:19:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … Anyhoo, your professed concern about the dangers posed by immigrants of any sort can now be discounted as meaningless blather. You aren’t particularly concerned about the threat posed by white American males, therefore. … Why this obsessive focus on “white American males”? Which group do you believe has the highest rate of criminality? A) minority American men B) white American men C) legal immigrant men D) illegal immigrant men E) minority American women F) white American women G) legal immigrant women H) illegal immigrant women ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/232 "2018-08-24T18:23:28Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m sincerely glad you want to reduce the number of rape victims, but I’m curious about the values part. What are “our” values vis-a-vis rape/rape prevention? I wouldn’t support, for example, overturning men’s due process rights, even if it could be shown to have some beneficial effect in reducing rapes. I consider the importance of those due process rights to be one of our shared (I hope) values. > [@nelliebly](#): > > Also, to clarify, you only want to prevent rape and murder among US citizens? Permanent legal residents, temporary residents (e.g., student visas), and illegal immigrants are all on their own? See post #225. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/233 "2018-08-24T18:44:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which group do you believe has the highest rate of criminality? I do not know but it is not immigrants (illegal or not): > [@](#): > > In the context of crime, victimization, and immigration in the United States, research shows that people are afraid of immigrants because they think immigrants are a threat to their safety and engage in many violent and property crimes. However, quantitative research has consistently shown that being foreign born is negatively associated with crime overall and is not significantly associated with committing either violent or property crime. If an undocumented immigrant is arrested for a criminal offense, it tends to be for a misdemeanor. Researchers suggest that undocumented immigrants may be less likely to engage in serious criminal offending behavior because they seek to earn money and not to draw attention to themselves. > > SOURCE: [http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93](http://criminology.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93) > [@](#): > > A comparison of census and FBI data shows the U.S. rate of violent crime was cut by nearly half from 1990 to 2013, while the number of undocumented immigrants in the country tripled. > > SOURCE: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/03/21/questions-raised-about-a-study-that-links-undocumented-immigrants-to-higher-crime/?utm\_term=.942baafc6f5e](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/03/21/questions-raised-about-a-study-that-links-undocumented-immigrants-to-higher-crime/?utm_term=.942baafc6f5e) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/234 "2018-08-24T18:54:44Z")
No matter how many studies you cite, he will just say “There aren’t many studies, therefore I pick ‘Illegal immigrants cause more crime’ as my position” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/235 "2018-08-24T18:55:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Which had about zip to do with the price of tea in China. > > It was certainly a way of failing to address the effect of his _statement_ on the argument you’d been making, while trying to take the debate in a new and unrelated direction. Anyhoo, your professed concern about the dangers posed by immigrants of any sort can now be discounted as meaningless blather. That, and it is clearly more to do with attempting to help Trump and his followers to ignore what is going on elsewhere. > **[Fox Focuses on Mollie Tibbetts Murder & Christian Movies After Cohen,...](https://observer.com/2018/08/fox-news-mollie-tibbetts-michael-cohen-paul-manafort/)** > > ‘They’re throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.’ > [@](#): > > And soon after the news broke, Fox hosts and guests went into damage control mode. They only brought up the verdicts to downplay them, saying the rest of the media was “overreacting” or that “real Americans” like the people who attend Trump’s rallies don’t care about his associates’ illegal actions. > > Good news, guys: federal crimes are totally cool now! > > While Fox was bending over backwards to appease Trump, it also expended a lot of energy on another story: the murder of Mollie Tibbetts. > > The 20-year-old college sophomore from Iowa disappeared last month, and her body was found yesterday. An undocumented immigrant was charged with her first-degree murder. > > CNN and MSNBC both covered the murder on air before the verdicts were announced—and they have continued coverage online. > > But Fox, in particular, latched onto the story of a white woman slain by an “illegal alien.” > > “Illegal immigration kills Americans, enough is enough,” conservative commentator Tomi Lahren said. > > Her cronies like Candace Owens, Charlie Kirk and Laura Loomer made similar statements on social media—even after Tibbetts’ aunt told them to stop. > > This murder is undoubtedly tragic, and it’s an important story that deserves coverage. But it’s not the only important news. Just because the other big stories of the day show a president that Fox loves in a bad light doesn’t mean the network should weaponize a young woman’s death. > > But Jared Holt, an analyst at the media research group Right Wing Watch, told Observer that Fox’s strategy came right from the “alternative facts” playbook. > > “It comes across as an effort to counterprogram and provide an alternate news item for right wing audiences to gravitate toward while the rest of mainstream media is weighing in on yesterday’s verdicts,” Holt said. “They prioritize this story over a national breaking news story that doesn’t bode well for the Trump administration.” > > But mining the Tibbetts murder for ratings also trivializes it. > > … > > Admittedly Fox isn’t the only outlet guilty of minimizing the Cohen/Manafort news. The Federalist was heavily criticized for its headline: “Jury Fails To Convict Manafort On Majority Of Counts.” > > People on social media said this was akin to reporting, “Majority of towers still standing in New York” or “Majority of audience enjoys Our American Cousin without being shot in the skull.” > > But Fox’s decision to put Manafort and Cohen’s crimes on the same, lower level as Twitter insults and Christian movies is arguably more dangerous. > > … > > Indeed, while conservative commentators often talk about the “liberal media bubble,” they’re also guilty of sheltering audiences. Their insistence that negative Trump stories aren’t important or should be ignored puts viewers in a bubble of their own. > **[Why Trump Supporters Believe He Is Not Corrupt](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/what-trumps-supporters-think-of-corruption/568147/)** > > What the president’s supporters fear most isn’t the corruption of American law, but the corruption of America’s traditional identity. > [@](#): > > Cohen’s admission highlights one of the enduring riddles of the Trump era. Trump’s supporters say they care about corruption. During the campaign, they cheered his vow to “drain the swamp” in Washington, D.C. When Morning Consult asked Americans in May 2016 to explain why they disliked Hillary Clinton, the second-most-common answer was that she was “corrupt.” And yet, Trump supporters appear largely unfazed by the mounting evidence that Trump is the least ethical president in modern American history. When asked last month whether they considered Trump corrupt, only 14 percent of Republicans said yes. Even Cohen’s allegation is unlikely to change that. > > The answer may lie in how Trump and his supporters define corruption. In a forthcoming book titled How Fascism Works, the Yale philosophy professor Jason Stanley makes an intriguing claim. “Corruption, to the fascist politician,” he suggests, “is really about the corruption of purity rather than of the law. Officially, the fascist politician’s denunciations of corruption sound like a denunciation of political corruption. But such talk is intended to evoke corruption in the sense of the usurpation of the traditional order.” > [@](#): > > Cohen’s admission makes it harder for Republicans to claim that Trump didn’t violate the law. But it doesn’t really matter. For many Republicans, Trump remains uncorrupt—indeed, anticorrupt—because what they fear most isn’t the corruption of American law; it’s the corruption of America’s traditional identity. And in the struggle against that form of corruption—the kind embodied by Cristhian Rivera—Trump isn’t the problem. He’s the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/236 "2018-08-24T18:56:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m most concerned about the welfare and safety of myself and my family and friends. What do you think the odds are of your family and friends being raped / murdered by an illegal alien? What do you think the odds are of your family and friends being raped / murdered by family and friends? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/237 "2018-08-24T18:59:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What do you think the odds are of your family and friends being raped / murdered by an illegal alien? > > What do you think the odds are of your family and friends being raped / murdered by family and friends? Slim and slim. A couple of months ago Mollie Tibbetts’ family would probably have answered those questions the same way. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/238 "2018-08-24T19:06:16Z")
Speaking of answering questions differently, it is clear that the accused worked at a farm owned by a prominent Iowa Republican family. Who did not use E-verify as they claimed before. IMHO that does make more valid my point that Republicans in power did not bothered much with the law, or bother about things like responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/239 "2018-08-24T19:11:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Speaking of answering questions differently, it is clear that the accused worked at a farm owned by a prominent Iowa Republican family. > > Who did not use E-verify as they claimed before Is this new information? They didn’t use E-verify? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/240 "2018-08-24T19:16:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is this new information? They didn’t use E-verify? > **[Cristhian Rivera, charged in Mollie Tibbetts' death, worked at a farm owned by...](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2018/08/21/mollie-tibbetts-undocumented-immigrant-accused-killing-worked-farm-owned-republican-iowa-craig-lang/1059482002/)** > > "This individual has worked at our farms for four years, was vetted through the government's E-Verify system," said farm owner. > [@](#): > > Editor’s note: Yarabee Farms, Cristhian Rivera’s employer, said Tuesday that they had used the federal E-Verify program to vet Rivera’s identity. On Wednesday, officials from the farm acknowledged they had not used the E-Verify system and that Rivera had given them false information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=13)