# Mollie Tibbetts missing college student (allegedly) killed by illegal alien **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030 "2018-08-22T06:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/321 "2018-08-28T17:18:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are something like 12 million illegal immigrants in the country, right? If we removed 6 or 7 million of them, I’d call that good progress. Who would pick our fruit? Our lettuce? Milk and produce might double in price. Note that growers have tried to get born Americans to do it, and they simply wont or cant. [http://www.mcall.com/business/getsmart/mc-fast-facts-how-much-would-deportation-of-illegal-immigrants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html](http://www.mcall.com/business/getsmart/mc-fast-facts-how-much-would-deportation-of-illegal-immigrants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html) > **[Donald Trump's deportation plan would be an economic nightmare](https://www.businessinsider.com/cost-deporting-undocumented-immigrants-study-2016-5)** > > An analysis by the American Action Forum says deporting all unauthorized US immigrants would mean hundreds of billions of dollars in lost economic activity. > **[Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job](https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/)** > > Trump's immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it's worsening a desperate labor shortage. > **[These U.S. industries can't work without illegal immigrants](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-economy-farm-workers-taxes/)** > > Some 8 million undocumented workers pick American fruit, construct American buildings, raise American babies – and pay American taxes ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/322 "2018-08-28T17:38:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Who would pick our fruit? Our lettuce? Milk and produce might double in price. > > Note that growers have tried to get born Americans to do it, and they simply wont or cant. > [http://www.mcall.com/business/getsmart/mc-fast-facts-how-much-would-deportation-of-illegal-immigrants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html](http://www.mcall.com/business/getsmart/mc-fast-facts-how-much-would-deportation-of-illegal-immigrants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html) > [Economic Costs of Deporting All Undocumented Immigrants](https://www.businessinsider.com/cost-deporting-undocumented-immigrants-study-2016-5) > > [Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job - Los Angeles Times](http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/) > > [These U.S. industries can't work without illegal immigrants - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-economy-farm-workers-taxes/) I guess the inverse of that question is “Are you super happy that your cheap oranges come from the labour of people being paid below minimum wage under constant threat of the authorities?” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/323 "2018-08-28T17:55:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Who would pick our fruit? Our lettuce? Milk and produce might double in price. > > Note that growers have tried to get born Americans to do it, and they simply wont or cant. > [http://www.mcall.com/business/getsmart/mc-fast-facts-how-much-would-deportation-of-illegal-immigrants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html](http://www.mcall.com/business/getsmart/mc-fast-facts-how-much-would-deportation-of-illegal-immigrants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html) > [Economic Costs of Deporting All Undocumented Immigrants](https://www.businessinsider.com/cost-deporting-undocumented-immigrants-study-2016-5) > > [Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job - Los Angeles Times](http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/) > > [These U.S. industries can't work without illegal immigrants - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-economy-farm-workers-taxes/) I could support a guest worker program or an expansion of legal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/324 "2018-08-28T18:03:21Z")
Tibbetts’s father thanked the Hispanic community for helping in the search for her. > **[Mollie Tibbetts's Dad Thanks Hispanics for Search Help](https://www.newsweek.com/mollie-tibbetts-father-eulogy-funeral-hispanic-immigration-donald-trump-1091257)** > > The father of slain University of Iowa student Mollie Tibbetts eulogized his daughter by asking people to "turn the page" and adding how "grateful" he was to the Hispanic community during the search. Tibbetts’s cousin slams the racists trying to use her death. > **[Mollie Tibbetts' Relative Slams 'Racist Fear-Mongering' And White House...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mollie-tibbetts-relative-slams-racist-fear-mongering-and-white-house-hyperbole_n_5b8434dce4b0cd327dfed87e)** > > Sandi Tibbetts Murphy wants everyone to stop exploiting Mollie's tragic death. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/325 "2018-08-28T18:03:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sure it is, because (and this is the thing that makes illegal immigrants unique among all the population groups we’ve discussed in this thread) they’re not supposed to be here anyways. It doesn’t matter, though. Not for the sake of this argument. The only thing you prove by saying, “If that illegal immigrant hadn’t been here, that crime wouldn’t have happened” is that illegal immigrants commit crimes. You know, exactly like _every other population in the United States_. It doesn’t further your argument. When you say this: > [@](#): > > I support deportation for illegal aliens not because of the potential crimes they may commit (although I believe it will have an effect there), but because they broke the law by entering the country illegally and the appropriate punishment for that illegal act is deportation. Is that clear? Great! Then what’s the point of this thread? What’s the point of all this waffling? _There’s_ an actual distinction! Use that! But pointing to Mollie Tibbetts’s murder means _nothing_. Like in any population, there is some portion of illegal immigrants who are murderers. The only way this argument makes sense is if it’s an attempt to tar all illegal immigrants with the same brush, or to imply that they’re considerably more likely to be murderers. Which (and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not) _is absolutely the fucking point_! Why draw attention to one specific murder out of tens of thousands that happen around the country each year? Because it burns into people’s mind the mental connection, “illegal immigrant = dangerous criminal”. That’s the whole point. This is demographic demonization 101. Stop propagating it. Stop encouraging it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/326 "2018-08-28T18:13:38Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … Then what’s the point of this thread? … Perhaps you’ve lost track of the fact that I wasn’t the one that started this thread. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/327 "2018-08-28T18:27:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I personally believe we should open the borders and allow people that wish to come here to work to get a simple work visa, and then hold employers accountable to collecting and remitting taxes on all employees, That helps our economy to grow and thrive. Let the market determine who they want to hire. Would the amount of taxes the employers collect and remit cover the costs of the illegal aliens’ education, police/fire protection, medical care, use of roads, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/328 "2018-08-28T18:29:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Would the amount of taxes the employers collect and remit cover the costs of the illegal aliens’ education, police/fire protection, medical care, use of roads, etc.? The taxes you pay seems to cover your costs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/329 "2018-08-28T19:28:18Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Would the amount of taxes the employers collect and remit cover the costs of the illegal aliens’ education, police/fire protection, medical care, use of roads, etc.? No, but yours dont cover your cost, either. ---
**Author:** ![Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reindeer_flotilla/32/3024_2.png) [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reindeer_Flotilla)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/330 "2018-08-28T20:10:49Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … Then what’s the point of this thread? … > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps you’ve lost track of the fact that I wasn’t the one that started this thread. I believe what he didn’t lose track of was your 93 posts to this thread defending the OP’s position. And I noticed the above was your response to these great questions: > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Great! Then what’s the point of this thread? What’s the point of all this waffling? _There’s_ an actual distinction! Use that! But pointing to Mollie Tibbetts’s murder means _nothing_. Like in any population, there is some portion of illegal immigrants who are murderers. The only way this argument makes sense is if it’s an attempt to tar all illegal immigrants with the same brush, or to imply that they’re considerably more likely to be murderers. Which (and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not) _is absolutely the fucking point_! Why draw attention to one specific murder out of tens of thousands that happen around the country each year? Because it burns into people’s mind the mental connection, “illegal immigrant = dangerous criminal”. That’s the whole point. This is demographic demonization 101. Stop propagating it. Stop encouraging it. Your responses (and convenient lack thereof) are convincing a lot of people that this argument against illegal immigration has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with reasons most find unsavory. This motivates folks to not want to associate with the anti-immigration crowd nor their policies, legal or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/331 "2018-08-28T20:36:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps you’ve lost track of the fact that I wasn’t the one that started this thread. [Without meaning to seem like a dick about it…](https://imgur.com/a/1SOfYf3) The OP left ages ago. This is, for all intents and purposes, _your thread_. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/332 "2018-08-28T21:48:44Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I personally believe we should open the borders and allow people that wish to come here to work to get a simple work visa, and then hold employers accountable to collecting and remitting taxes on all employees, That helps our economy to grow and thrive. Let the market determine who they want to hire. I’m down with this. But how would you propose we handle the inevitable wage depression? It’s already bad, and opening the borders would make it worse for a considerable time. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/333 "2018-08-28T21:53:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are something like 12 million illegal immigrants in the country, right? If we removed 6 or 7 million of them, I’d call that good progress. OK, but why? What will be the positive effects of expending resources to round them up? Because I can definitely name some negative ones. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/334 "2018-08-28T21:57:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s also an accurate argument, but it ignores the fact that we already have, at our disposal, a legal mechanism for removing the illegal aliens for a crime they have committed. We don’t have a similar legal option for citizens or non-criminal immigrants. Of course we do, our legal system. We capture, try, and convict criminals. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/335 "2018-08-28T22:08:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The anecdotes are sufficient to show that deporting illegal immigrants will lead to “fewer” murders or rapes of American citizens by illegal immigrants. Simply stating this repeatedly doesn’t make it true. Any point provable by an anecdote is a pretty weak point. > [@](#): > > There are all kinds of radical thing that could be done to “save one child”. There are also some reasonable things that can be done in accordance with our laws and values. I believe “deport illegal immigrants” is one of the latter. Other conservative positions might better be topics for another thread. No, they’re perfect analogies for this thread. If we ban certain types of weapon used in mass shootings, your logic says that the shootings wouldn’t have happened because that weapon wasn’t available. There’s no difference in the reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/336 "2018-08-28T22:21:02Z")
> [@Kyomara](#): > > OK, but why? What will be the positive effects of expending resources to round them up? Because I can definitely name some negative ones. > [@](#): > > … if the laws be continually despised and disregarded, if their rights to be secure in their persons and property, are held by no better tenure than the caprice of a mob, the alienation of their affections from the Government is the natural consequence; and to that, sooner or later, it must come. > > Here then, is one point at which danger may be expected. > > The question recurs, “how shall we fortify against it?” The answer is simple. Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others. As the patriots of seventy-six did to the support of the Declaration of Independence, so to the support of the Constitution and Laws, let every American pledge his life, his property, and his sacred honor;–let every man remember that to violate the law, is to trample on the blood of his father, and to tear the character of his own, and his children’s liberty. Let reverence for the laws, be breathed by every American mother, to the lisping babe, that prattles on her lap–let it be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges; let it be written in Primers, spelling books, and in Almanacs;–let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation; and let the old and the young, the rich and the poor, the grave and the gay, of all sexes and tongues, and colors and conditions, sacrifice unceasingly upon its altars. > [@Kyomara](#): > > Of course we do, our legal system. We capture, try, and convict criminals. I mean that we don’t (at least currently) have a legal option for _removing_ them (from the country). Someone up-thread mentioned bringing back banishment, but I doubt the soft-on-crime party would actually support that, not to mention the practical difficulties of finding somewhere to deport them _to_. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/337 "2018-08-28T22:28:01Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Simply stating this repeatedly doesn’t make it true. > > Any point provable by an anecdote is a pretty weak point. I take this to mean that you understood my point about “evidence”, data, and anecdotes. You’re certainly entitled to the opinion that it’s a pretty weak point. When I decided to play along with your particular request for a specially-formatted assertion, I did purposely choose an assertion that I felt would be easy to prove. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > No, they’re perfect analogies for this thread. If we ban certain types of weapon used in mass shootings, your logic says that the shootings wouldn’t have happened because that weapon wasn’t available. There’s no difference in the reasoning. Wrong. The weapon isn’t the actor, the shooter is. If we were to only ban “certain types of weapons”, our would-be shooter could simply select another type of weapon. A better analogy would be that if we deported the shooter, he wouldn’t be here to shoot people. Shooting avoided. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/338 "2018-08-28T22:32:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Wrong. The weapon isn’t the actor, the shooter is. If we were to only ban “certain types of weapons”, our would-be shooter could simply select another type of weapon. A better analogy would be that if we deported the shooter, he wouldn’t be here to shoot people. Shooting avoided. Excellent. So we should deport and exile all gun owners from the US. This will reduce shootings almost to zero. I assume this policy has your support? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/339 "2018-08-28T22:35:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The weapon isn’t the actor, the shooter is. If we were to only ban “certain types of weapons”, our would-be shooter could simply select another type of weapon. Like an ANFO bomb? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/340 "2018-08-28T22:41:32Z")
> [@Reindeer\_Flotilla](#): > > I believe what he didn’t lose track of was your 93 posts to this thread defending the OP’s position. … > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [Without meaning to seem like a dick about it…](https://imgur.com/a/1SOfYf3) > > The OP left ages ago. This is, for all intents and purposes, _your thread_. The thread has covered a wide range of immigration-related topics. I’ve been involved in many of them. I certainly don’t think it’s accurate to say all 93 posts were “defending the OP’s position.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=18)