# Mollie Tibbetts missing college student (allegedly) killed by illegal alien **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030 "2018-08-22T06:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/341 "2018-08-28T22:44:52Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Excellent. So we should deport and exile all gun owners from the US. This will reduce shootings almost to zero. I assume this policy has your support? Of course not. The vast majority of gun owners have committed no crime. For those that have, deportation is not the appropriate punishment. There are also practical obstacles I’ve already mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/342 "2018-08-28T23:37:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Of course not. The vast majority of gun owners have committed no crime. For those that have, deportation is not the appropriate punishment. There are also practical obstacles I’ve already mentioned. Then we should deport all drivers from the USA, since everyone has violated the law at some point. And legally entering but overstaying your visa is about as serious as a traffic violation. Besides drivers killed about 40,000 people last year, far more than undocumented aliens did. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/343 "2018-08-29T00:06:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then we should deport all drivers from the USA, since everyone has violated the law at some point. And legally entering but overstaying your visa is about as serious as a traffic violation. > > Besides drivers killed about 40,000 people last year, far more than undocumented aliens did. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … For those that have, deportation is not the appropriate punishment. … Try again. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/344 "2018-08-29T00:36:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Of course not. The vast majority of gun owners have committed no crime. Great. Now substitute “undocumented aliens” for “gun owners” here, and you’re basically done! I know, I know, you’re going to grasp at the “but being undocumented IS a crime” straw. Fine. All gun owners who have never committed any crime or tort (no matter how small) can stay. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/345 "2018-08-29T02:04:55Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Great. Now substitute “undocumented aliens” for “gun owners” here, and you’re basically done! > > I know, I know, you’re going to grasp at the “but being undocumented IS a crime” straw. Fine. All gun owners who have never committed any crime or tort (no matter how small) can stay. “deportation is not the appropriate punishment” for “any crime or tort (no matter how small)”. It’s the appropriate punishment for one particular crime (or perhaps a handful, IANAL). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/346 "2018-08-29T03:32:31Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The taxes you pay seems to cover your costs. Just to clarify. In your proposal, are the employees or the employers paying the tax? A person making minimum wage picking lettuce can’t afford the taxes that would be necessary to pay for their fair share. If you shift the burden to the employers, they wouldn’t hire people. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/347 "2018-08-29T13:12:58Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Just to clarify. In your proposal, are the employees or the employers paying the tax? > > A person making minimum wage picking lettuce can’t afford the taxes that would be necessary to pay for their fair share. > > If you shift the burden to the employers, they wouldn’t hire people. Apart from the begged question of what constitutes a “fair share,” ISTM that this issue has nothing to do with immigration at all. If a person making minimum wage is a net drag on society, as you seem to suggest, that would appear to be a fundamental problem with how we value labor in general. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/348 "2018-08-29T13:19:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > It doesn’t matter, though. Not for the sake of this argument. The only thing you prove by saying, “If that illegal immigrant hadn’t been here, that crime wouldn’t have happened” is that illegal immigrants commit crimes. You know, exactly like _every other population in the United States_. It doesn’t further your argument. When you say this: > > Great! Then what’s the point of this thread? What’s the point of all this waffling? _There’s_ an actual distinction! Use that! But pointing to Mollie Tibbetts’s murder means _nothing_. Like in any population, there is some portion of illegal immigrants who are murderers. The only way this argument makes sense is if it’s an attempt to tar all illegal immigrants with the same brush, or to imply that they’re considerably more likely to be murderers. Which (and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not) _is absolutely the fucking point_! Why draw attention to one specific murder out of tens of thousands that happen around the country each year? Because it burns into people’s mind the mental connection, “illegal immigrant = dangerous criminal”. That’s the whole point. This is demographic demonization 101. Stop propagating it. Stop encouraging it. Any response to this? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/349 "2018-08-29T17:58:27Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Apart from the begged question of what constitutes a “fair share,” ISTM that this issue has nothing to do with immigration at all. If a person making minimum wage is a net drag on society, as you seem to suggest, that would appear to be a fundamental problem with how we value labor in general. Actually no. It’s not a problem at all. See, we have a progressive tax system, where despite the efforts of the GOP, the rich pay more in taxes than they get out, thus the poor can pay less. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/350 "2018-08-29T18:28:18Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Apart from the begged question of what constitutes a “fair share,” ISTM that this issue has nothing to do with immigration at all. If a person making minimum wage is a net drag on society, as you seem to suggest, that would appear to be a fundamental problem with how we value labor in general. Well, **Omar Little** claimed that open borders would benefit the economy. Exactly how are low wage workers who are consuming more resources than they contribute benefitting the economy? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/351 "2018-08-29T19:27:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Exactly how are low wage workers who are consuming more resources than they contribute benefitting the economy? Perhaps because they are _not_ actually “consuming more resources than they contribute?” Or is that too bizarre a concept to even contemplate? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/352 "2018-08-29T19:29:15Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Any response to this? I’ll respond to this part - > [@](#): > > Like in any population, there is some portion of illegal immigrants who are murderers. The only way this argument makes sense is if it’s an attempt to tar all illegal immigrants with the same brush, or to imply that they’re considerably more likely to be murderers. Which (and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not) is absolutely the fucking point! Why draw attention to one specific murder out of tens of thousands that happen around the country each year? Because it burns into people’s mind the mental connection, “illegal immigrant = dangerous criminal”. That’s the whole point. This is demographic demonization 101. Stop propagating it. Stop encouraging it. - by pointing out that it is wrong. That is not the whole point of the argument. [ul][li]Group A should not be in this country.[/li][li]Group A commits X amount of crime.[/li][li]If Group A were not in this country, crime would go down by X.[/ul]That’s the argument, and it is entirely true for any value of X \> 0.[/li] It does not matter if Group A commits more crime on average than the rest of the country, or less on average, or the same on average. If X \> 0, the syllogism holds. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/353 "2018-08-29T19:53:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ll respond to this part - > > - by pointing out that it is wrong. That is not the whole point of the argument. > > [ul][li]Group A should not be in this country.[/li][li]Group A commits X amount of crime.[/li][li]If Group A were not in this country, crime would go down by X.[/ul]That’s the argument, and it is entirely true for any value of X \> 0.[/li] > It does not matter if Group A commits more crime on average than the rest of the country, or less on average, or the same on average. If X \> 0, the syllogism holds. > > Regards, > Shodan This presumes that there’s no possibility that the presence of some people prevents or otherwise reduces crime committed by others. If Group A’s presence prevents or reduces crime by Y (whether because they’re a positive influence on some potential criminals, or because they include more watchful eyes and ears, or more action hero vigilante crimestoppers, or the positive economic activity and wealth they generate decreases crime in the way that wealth does, or many other possibilities), and Y is \> or = X, then the syllogism does not hold. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/354 "2018-08-29T20:15:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ll respond to this part - > > - by pointing out that it is wrong. That is not the whole point of the argument. > > [ul][li]Group A should not be in this country.[/li][li]Group A commits X amount of crime.[/li][li]If Group A were not in this country, crime would go down by X.[/ul]That’s the argument, and it is entirely true for any value of X \> 0.[/li] > It does not matter if Group A commits more crime on average than the rest of the country, or less on average, or the same on average. If X \> 0, the syllogism holds. > > Regards, > Shodan Right, but it _still doesn’t constitute an argument_. Remove _any_ group, and crime goes down by however much crime they commit. Sure, illegal immigrants are unique in that they should not be in the country, but that’s completely independent from the crime they commit. There’s no connection there that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/355 "2018-08-29T20:33:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Right, but it _still doesn’t constitute an argument_. Remove _any_ group, and crime goes down by however much crime they commit. Sure, illegal immigrants are unique in that they should not be in the country, but that’s completely independent from the crime they commit. There’s no connection there that makes sense. That they shouldn’t be here in the first place \*\*is \*\*the connection. If they weren’t in this country, they wouldn’t be able to commit crimes in this country. Because you are correct - remove any group, and you remove the crimes committed by that group. Illegal immigrants are unique in that it is morally justified to remove them from the country, because they don’t belong here in the first place. That’s not true of native born citizens, or legal immigrants, or gun owners, or store customers. We can’t remove them - we can, and should, remove illegal immigrants. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/356 "2018-08-29T20:34:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [ul][li]Group A should not be in this country.[/li][li]Group A commits X amount of crime.[/li][li]If Group A were not in this country, crime would go down by X.[/ul]That’s the argument, and it is entirely true for any value of X \> 0.[/li] > It does not matter if Group A commits more crime on average than the rest of the country, or less on average, or the same on average. If X \> 0, the syllogism holds. Come on, the error here is obvious. The absolute number of crimes is not relevant to anything, it’s the _rate_ of crime per capita - that’s what determines whether you are a likely to be the victim of a crime. Unless population density is correlated with crime rate, removing some subpopulation that contains the same proportion of criminals as the entire population does not reduce the crime _rate_. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/357 "2018-08-29T20:44:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This presumes that there’s no possibility that the presence of some people prevents or otherwise reduces crime committed by others. If Group A’s presence prevents or reduces crime by Y (whether because they’re a positive influence on some potential criminals, or because they include more watchful eyes and ears, or more action hero vigilante crimestoppers, or the positive economic activity and wealth they generate decreases crime in the way that wealth does, or many other possibilities), and Y is \> or = X, then the syllogism does not hold. Then all we need is evidence that the presence of illegal immigrants reduces crime, and we can discuss it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/358 "2018-08-29T20:58:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then all we need is evidence that the presence of illegal immigrants reduces crime, and we can discuss it. > > Regards, > Shodan If you accept that some of them engage in economic activity and wealth creation, and if you accept that economic activity and wealth creation have a positive (meaning less) impact on crime, then you already have that evidence. Alternately, if you accept that some of them have functioning eyes and the ability to be watchful, and if you believe that more watchful eyes can prevent crime, then you already have that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/359 "2018-08-29T21:42:50Z")
> [@Abe Lincoln via HurricaneDitka](#): > > … if the laws be continually despised and disregarded, if their rights to be secure in their persons and property, are held by no better tenure than the caprice of a mob, the alienation of their affections from the Government is the natural consequence; and to that, sooner or later, it must come. > > Here then, is one point at which danger may be expected. > > The question recurs, “how shall we fortify against it?” The answer is simple. Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others. As the patriots of seventy-six did to the support of the Declaration of Independence, so to the support of the Constitution and Laws, let every American pledge his life, his property, and his sacred honor;–let every man remember that to violate the law, is to trample on the blood of his father, and to tear the character of his own, and his children’s liberty. Let reverence for the laws, be breathed by every American mother, to the lisping babe, that prattles on her lap–let it be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges; let it be written in Primers, spelling books, and in Almanacs;–let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation; and let the old and the young, the rich and the poor, the grave and the gay, of all sexes and tongues, and colors and conditions, sacrifice unceasingly upon its altars. This quote is about crime in general. What is it about the crime of illegal immigration in particular that you think makes it so in need of attention? There are laws against it, and they are being enforced. How do you reckon they aren’t being enforced strenuously enough compared to other laws which are enforced with less than 100% success? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/360 "2018-08-29T21:55:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > …“Abe Lincoln… > …Let every American, every lover of liberty, every well wisher to his posterity, swear by the blood of the Revolution, never to violate in the least particular, the laws of the country; and never to tolerate their violation by others”… Good one, except in Abes time, America had open borders, and it wasn’t a crime to enter it outside a quota. In fact that’s what made America great. So, rather than Abe’s quote helping your “cause” it destroys it. And now, it’s not really a 'crime" to enter the USA legally but outstay your visa. Let me give you a few more Honest Abe quotes: President Lincoln, in his Annual Message to Congress on December 8, 1863, called for government assistance. “I\* again submit to your consideration the expediency of establishing a system for the encouragement of immigration. All though this source of national wealth and strength is again flowing with greater freedom than for several years before the insurrection occurred, there is still a great deficiency of laborers in every field of industry, especially in agriculture, and in our mines, as well as of iron and coal as of the precious metals. While the demand for labor is thus increased here, tens of thousands of persons, destitute of remunerative occupation, are thronging our foreign consulates and offering to emigrate to the United States if essential, but very cheap assistance, can be afforded them. It is very easy to see that under the sharp discipline of Civil War, the nation is beginning a new life. This noble effort demands the aid and out to receive the attention of the Government.”\* or “We have besides these men—descended by blood from our ancestors—among us perhaps half our people who are not descendants at all of these men, they are men who come from Europe—German, Irish, French and Scandinavian—men that have come from Europe themselves, or whose ancestors have come hither and settled here, finding themselves our equals in all things. If they look back through this history to trace their connection with those days by blood, they find they have none, they cannot carry themselves back into that glorious epoch and make themselves feel that they are part of us, but when they look through that old Declaration of Independence they find that those old men say that ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,’ and then they feel that that moral sentiment taught in that day evidences their relation to those men, that it is the father of all moral principle in them, and that they have a right to claim it as though they were blood of the blood, and flesh of the flesh, of the men who wrote that Declaration, and so they are. That is the electric cord in that Declaration that links the hearts of Patriotic and liberty-loving men together, that will link those patriotic hearts as long as the love of freedom exists in the minds of men throughout the world.” In fact if Abe found out you were misusing his words to oppose immigration, he’d roll over in his grave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=19)