# Mollie Tibbetts missing college student (allegedly) killed by illegal alien **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030 "2018-08-22T06:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/61 "2018-08-22T16:16:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m afraid I don’t understand your question here. I’ve notice that this tends to conveniently happen at the stage of a discussion when you realize that maybe you’re wrong. I’m happy to have a discussion with you, but I think this time it’s your turn reread what I wrote earlier to see if you get my point, rather than putting the burden on me to spell it out. You may disagree, but I think my point was pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/62 "2018-08-22T16:20:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In that case, it seems to me the polite thing for Trump to do would be to stop claiming credit for things that happened four\* or more\* years ago. If I understand your point, this seems like an off-topic hijack. Does Trump claiming credit for things that happened for or more years ago have something to do with Molly Tibbetts? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/63 "2018-08-22T16:27:43Z")
At this point I’m just waiting curiously to see _what_ kind of relevancies people will try to attach to Molly Tibbetts. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/64 "2018-08-22T16:31:51Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Changes no one’s mind among those sharing the board consensus, and easily ignored, at least as far as anyone speaking up, as the thread predictably shows. Agreed. And you’re quite right. I just thought, hearing the news yesterday, that this was about the worst possible outcome to have happen in the case and for those arguing against Trump and his views on immigration. Hearing this I thought ‘Oh no, this isn’t going to be good for the debate’. In fact talking to a few people yesterday who hand’t heard the update, it was bad enough that she was found dead, but the consensus reaction to who might be responsible for it was similar to mine - ‘Really? Uh oh’. And I didn’t really know and it really didn’t seem to matter which ideology people held when hearing it. As if everyone immediately thought this was going to get messy. And thus my starting this thread. If this can be contained and blown off, as the start of this threads replies suggest, I’ll be impressed. I just don’t believe it’s going to go that way. Fwiw. > [@Corry\_El](#): > > That consensus position tends to focus on the contention, perhaps accurate\*, that the serious crime rate is no higher among illegal aliens than the general population. But, assuming that’s true, it’s not necessarily air tight logic to proceed to the idea that one shouldn’t worry about crimes committed by people who could be excluded from the country. Again, totally agree. And agree with the rest of what you said. You put it much better and succinctly than I have, and did. Nice post. I’ll be busy reading your link right after this. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/65 "2018-08-22T17:00:17Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’ve notice that this tends to conveniently happen at the stage of a discussion when you realize that maybe you’re wrong. I’m happy to have a discussion with you, but I think this time it’s your turn reread what I wrote earlier to see if you get my point, rather than putting the burden on me to spell it out. You may disagree, but I think my point was pretty clear. No, I really don’t understand what you are asking me in that question. Sorry if it’s clear to you, but it isn’t to me. That’s why I said I didn’t understand. See, in my life, if someone asks me something, and I don’t understand the question, I tell them I don’t understand the question, instead of trying to give an answer that may or may not answer the question. I’m not sure how you do it in your life. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/66 "2018-08-22T17:05:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Although it may be true that this board in general is more liberal in regards to immigration than you, personally, may be, that doesn’t mean the average Doper wants NO regulation at all. Debatable, to me at least, as I’ve never seen much of a consensus among those on the left on where the line should be drawn. If there was one, I missed it. I’d love to read a thread on just that issue alone. I think it’d be revealing in the sense that most want unfettered, open, immigration. IMO. > [@Ca3799](#): > > … Christhain Rivera has been working on a farm owned by Republicans for the last 4 years… If true, and the farm owner says it is, this would prove that Republicans are hypocrits on illegal immigrants… I can’t point to one well known Republican who agrees with what you suggest and among those of my right leaning friends, not one them has ever argued for allowing hiring an illegal. Quite the contrary, most believe hiring an illegal should be pursued and prosecuted as hard as those who come here illegally - ie, harshly, and to the full extend of the law. In other words, where this hypocrisy you’re seeing? Who on the right is arguing hiring illegals should be ignored? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/67 "2018-08-22T17:09:58Z")
Ok manson, here’s the whole exchange: > [@Broomstick](#): > > …I find it very politically convenient that this woman was killed by an illegal immigrant. But then, I’m not privy to any of the details here. I don’t know if this is a slam-dunk or just slim evidence here. > [@Riemann](#): > > This is a very unwise argument, since it appears to concede that some inference about illegal immigrants in general does hinge on the facts of this one case. > [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems like a legitimate argument to me. Because yes, some inference about illegal immigrants WILL be made by certain people, and it won’t be a good one. Your comment above seemed like something of a _non sequitur_ to mine, so I explained what I meant: > [@Riemann](#): > > Claim without evidence: Maybe he didn’t do it! Maybe it’s a conspiracy by Trumpists to discredit illegal immigrants! > > The evidence turns out to show that there was no conspiracy, he did do it. > > How do you think that plays out? > > There are evil individuals in any cross-section of society that you choose. If the rational position is that actions of one individual imply nothing about the behavior of an entire social group, then it’s a mistake to discuss the uncertain facts of case _as though_ any such implication might hinge on it. Even if you do not intend to grant that assumption, it can easily be interpreted that you are doing so. > > If there’s _evidence_ of him being framed by local Trumpists with an agenda, that’s another matter, with depressing implications about our society. But I think you need to be careful about speculation when (so far as I’m aware) at the moment there’s not a shred of evidence to support this notion. > [@Slash1972](#): > > “Whether or not it is a frame up that nobody ever finds out about, or if he really did do it, it’s politically convenient for those pressing the “Illegal Immigrants are murdering thugs!” angle” > [@Riemann](#): > > So why were you challenging my point that it’s a poor idea to engage in unfounded speculation that _this particular case_ might be frame-up, when such speculation can easily be interpreted to be granting an assumption that something broader about illegal immigrants _does_ depend on whether that’s true or false? So what, exactly, don’t you understand about that exchange? If other people chip in an say that my point is unclear, then fair enough, I’ll try again. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/68 "2018-08-22T17:14:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > At this point I’m just waiting curiously to see _what_ kind of relevancies people will try to attach to Molly Tibbetts. Here is a very relevant issue: > [@](#): > > …I’m so just…distressed right now. Pictured is Mollie Tibbetts; she was an Iowa University student. She was murdered. The police report came out today and it was revealed that her killer (who I refuse to name) catcalled her, and when she tried to get him to leave her alone by threatening to call 911, he got angry, chased her down and killed her in cold blood. He walked free for over a month. Now he is claiming that he “blacked out” and doesnt know what happened, yet easily led police to her body – dumped in a cornfield. I cannot imagine how fearful she was, how scared and defenseless she felt, how hopeless everythin seemed in her final moments. Fuck. This is why so many of us are terrified when men catcall and yell and try to pursue us. This is why I clutch my keys extra tight at night, why I always call and text my boyfriend when I’m coming and going. This is why I carry pepper spray, why I hate going out at night alone and why I refuse to take bike rides on secluded trails. This is why so, so, so many women just smile tight with their eyes darting around, heart beating fast when unknown men try to talk to them. Mollie, nor any woman, did not deserve this. I am so upset right now, as I live a few counties away from where she was. This could’ve been me, or my friends, or a female family member. Rest in Peace, Mollie – she will get the justice she deserves. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/997lmx/mollie\_tibbetts\_was\_murdered\_because\_she\_wasnt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/997lmx/mollie_tibbetts_was_murdered_because_she_wasnt/) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/69 "2018-08-22T17:17:12Z")
Ok, I’ll try: “So why were you challenging my point that it’s a poor idea to engage in unfounded speculation that this particular case might be frame-up, when such speculation can easily be interpreted to be granting an assumption that something broader about illegal immigrants does depend on whether that’s true or false?” Because something broader about illegal immigrants \*\*does \*\*depend on whether that’s true or false. Does that answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/70 "2018-08-22T17:30:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ok, I’ll try: > > “So why were you challenging my point that it’s a poor idea to engage in unfounded speculation that this particular case might be frame-up, when such speculation can easily be interpreted to be granting an assumption that something broader about illegal immigrants does depend on whether that’s true or false?” > > Because something broader about illegal immigrants \*\*does \*\*depend on whether that’s true or false. > > Does that answer your question? Unless you think no illegal immigrants commit any serious crimes, it is indeed stupid to argue whether this particular case is true as if that makes some difference. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/71 "2018-08-22T17:38:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because something broader about illegal immigrants \*\*does \*\*depend on whether that’s true or false. You’re accusing me of being unclear, yet when I’m trying in good faith to explain what I mean you choose to respond in this obtuse way. Why not explain _what_ you think depends on the facts of this specific case? And, more important, why that prompted you to disagree with my point that it may be strategically harmful to the broader national debate on immigration to speculate that this particular case may be a frame-up, when there’s no evidence that it’s a frame-up? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/72 "2018-08-22T17:50:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You’re accusing me of being unclear, yet when I’m trying in good faith to explain what I mean you choose to respond in this obtuse way. Why not explain _what_ you think depends on the facts of this specific case? And, more important, why that prompted you to disagree with my point that it may be strategically harmful to the broader national debate on immigration to speculate that this particular case may be a frame-up, when there’s no evidence that it’s a frame-up? Well, if by “in good faith” you mean reposting things I already read, then we will have to disagree what “in good faith” means. And to pointedly answer one of your questions, I do not think one poster maybe speculating on one message board that this particular case may be a frame-up will be strategically harmful to the broader national debate on immigration. I DO, however, think the facts of this one case WILL affect the national debate on illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/73 "2018-08-22T17:50:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think anyone is making the argument that _all_ illegal immigrants are killers either. Oh c’mon, why do you think “something that happens _ten thousand times a year_” is front page news on Fox on the same day that two major Trump aides are convicted of high crimes? Why should this one event drastically shift the immigration debate, as the OP implies? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/74 "2018-08-22T18:08:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > …I do not think one poster maybe speculating on one message board that this particular case may be a frame-up will be strategically harmful to the broader national debate on immigration… So you have now backed off to a position that unsupported speculation that this case is a Trumpist frame-up is fine _but only if it’s done in a forum that nobody actually pays any attention to_. It seems to me that this is tantamount to agreeing with me such speculation is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/75 "2018-08-22T18:14:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > … Why should this one event drastically shift the immigration debate, as the OP implies? I don’t know about “should”, but it probably will. If you don’t already understand, at least vaguely, why that is, then I doubt I could explain it to you. I guess you’ll just have to watch and see. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/76 "2018-08-22T18:27:47Z")
It won’t shift the immigration discussion at all. It just adds another example to the list for how one side is framing the debate already. It’s not like this is an"OMG, some of those illegal immigrants are criminals! This changes everything!" moment. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/77 "2018-08-22T18:30:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So you have now backed off to a position that unsupported speculation that this case is a Trumpist frame-up is fine _but only if it’s done in a forum that nobody actually pays any attention to_. > > It seems to me that this is tantamount to agreeing with me such speculation is a bad idea. No, I don’t. I don’t think such speculation is a bad idea at all. I haven’t backed off of anything. My position is this case, this ONE case, will affect the national discourse on illegal immigration, regardless of whether or not the evidence is great, thin, or non-existent. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/78 "2018-08-22T18:38:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, I don’t. I don’t think such speculation is a bad idea at all. I haven’t backed off of anything. Ok, then would you care to actually respond to what I said in post #54 about why such speculation may be strategically harmful? > [@Slash1972](#): > > My position is this case, this ONE case, will affect the national discourse on illegal immigration, regardless of whether or not the evidence is great, thin, or non-existent. This isn’t something I dispute, and it’s not responsive to the argument I laid out in post #54. You frame it as though it’s disputing a claim I made, when it’s essentially a _non sequitur_ that comes closer to agreeing with me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/79 "2018-08-22T18:38:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh c’mon, why do you think “something that happens _ten thousand times a year_” is front page news on Fox on the same day that two major Trump aides are convicted of high crimes? Why should this one event drastically shift the immigration debate, as the OP implies? In fairness, I could picture 9998 more Trump associates being convicted of something by the end of the year, for the tie. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/80 "2018-08-22T18:38:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh c’mon, why do you think “something that happens _ten thousand times a year_” is front page news on Fox on the same day that two major Trump aides are convicted of high crimes? Why should this one event drastically shift the immigration debate, as the OP implies? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know about “should”, but it probably will. If you don’t already understand, at least vaguely, why that is, then I doubt I could explain it to you. I guess you’ll just have to watch and see. Knowing that others did notice how outfits like FOX news used this bit of news to avoid talking about the problems the “gift-getter” Trump has, I do think that that this will be part of the debate alright, not just the one many on the right wanted. > **[Fox News Slammed for Covering Tooth Fairy Over Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen...](https://www.thewrap.com/fox-news-slammed-over-thin-cohen-manafort-coverage/)** > > "They don't give it the serious wall-to-wall coverage that it merits," CNN media reporter Brian Stelter scolded in his Tuesday evening newsletter > [@](#): > > Fox News Slammed for Covering Tooth Fairy Over Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen Convictions > > “They don’t give it the serious wall-to-wall coverage that it merits,” CNN media reporter Brian Stelter scolded in his Tuesday evening newsletter > [@](#): > > Fox News dedicated their considerable resources to covering Cristhian Rivera, an undocumented immigrant accused of killing Iowa woman, Mollie Tibbetts — a story they broke. The piece continued President Trump’s long-running contention that tough measures to curb illegal immigration are necessary to prevent similar crimes. > > Wednesday’s morning show “Fox & Friends” jumped from a three-minute segment on Cohen to a feature on the Tooth Fairy and the average payment to children who lose their teeth, which prompted much critique by online critics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=5)