# Mollie Tibbetts missing college student (allegedly) killed by illegal alien **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030 "2018-08-22T06:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/161 "2018-08-23T15:51:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Seems strange for a person to use their own ignorance of the rules as a factor in their arguments. I believe you’ve misunderstood the substance of my argument here if you think my ignorance is a factor in it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/162 "2018-08-23T15:57:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I believe you’ve misunderstood the substance of my argument here if you think my ignorance is a factor in it. Perhaps. Or perhaps you are ignorant of the role your ignorance is playing in that argument? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/163 "2018-08-23T15:57:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > _shrug_ I’ve recently been educated in another forum that this place is all for running right up to the line of what the rules allow, regardless of the morality or rightness of doing so. OK, clearly you understand nothing that was being said in the other thread, so it in no way contradicts what **RickJay** was saying. Carry on as before. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/164 "2018-08-23T15:58:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, no, I was talking about _legal_ immigrants, but since you brought it up, yes, we should definitely do a better job of keeping out the _illegal_ immigrants. Do you disagree? We don’t allow ordinary legal immigration from Mexico. We haven’t for decades. If you’re an ordinary Mexican, a person like your ancestor or my ancestor, who wants to come to America in order to live and work here, you have no legal means to do so. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/165 "2018-08-23T16:15:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We don’t allow ordinary legal immigration from Mexico. We haven’t for decades. If you’re an ordinary Mexican, a person like your ancestor or my ancestor, who wants to come to America in order to live and work here, you have no legal means to do so. Do you think we, as a country, have a right to make that decision and enforce it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/166 "2018-08-23T16:24:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you think we, as a country, have a right to make that decision and enforce it? Huhwhat? You said you were talking about \*legal \*immigrants from Mexico. **Nemo** ’s point is that there essentially haven’t _been_ any in decades. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/167 "2018-08-23T16:25:11Z")
Dunno about that “not allowing Mexicans” part. For generations, we let them in to pick our grapes and melons and just sort of pretended not to. Edward R. Murrow did a documentary on that in 1960, called _Harvest of Shame_ that shocked America’s conscience, sorta kinda. We got a bit upset, but didn’t do anything. And so it went. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/168 "2018-08-23T16:46:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Huhwhat? > > You said you were talking about \*legal \*immigrants from Mexico. **Nemo** ’s point is that there essentially haven’t _been_ any in decades. There are a couple of strands of conversation going on here simultaneously, and I’m involved in both of them. In one of them I was asked by kambuckta “what would delight you?” and I gave a response related to our legal immigration system. That’s where I think you say “I was talking about legal immigrants”. In another strand of conversation, with you and BPC I’ve been discussing how we should handle illegal immigrants. I made an analogy to a bowl of skittles which represents the illegal immigration population. When BPC asked me if I wanted to “deport all immigrants” or just the brown ones. I want to deport the illegal ones, regardless of skin tone, and in post #152 I tried to make it clear that I was discussing our population of illegal immigrants. Does that resolve your confusion? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/169 "2018-08-23T18:13:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are a couple of strands of conversation going on here simultaneously, and I’m involved in both of them. In one of them I was asked by kambuckta “what would delight you?” and I gave a response related to our legal immigration system. That’s where I think you say “I was talking about legal immigrants”. In another strand of conversation, with you and BPC I’ve been discussing how we should handle illegal immigrants. I made an analogy to a bowl of skittles which represents the illegal immigration population. When BPC asked me if I wanted to “deport all immigrants” or just the brown ones. I want to deport the illegal ones, regardless of skin tone, and in post #152 I tried to make it clear that I was discussing our population of illegal immigrants. Does that resolve your confusion? 1. In which thread does the question “Do you think we, as a country, have a right to make that decision and enforce it?” make sense? In either one, I can’t see it as anything but an attempt to dodge the question by changing the subject. 2. Since you’ve acknowledged that I’m in the skittles subthread, feel free to respond to my post there at some point. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/170 "2018-08-23T18:46:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > 1. In which thread does the question “Do you think we, as a country, have a right to make that decision and enforce it?” make sense? In either one, I can’t see it as anything but an attempt to dodge the question by changing the subject. Dodge what question? It was a response to post #164 by Little Nemo, which didn’t include a question. He made a statement there. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > 1. Since you’ve acknowledged that I’m in the skittles subthread, feel free to respond to my post there at some point. You don’t have to be “in the skittles subthread” to ask me a question about something I said there, I was just trying to explain that some of my responses are to people talking about things like legal immigrants and our immigration laws and other responses are to people talking about illegal immigrants, and what I say / feel about one group is not necessarily the same as how I feel about the other group. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > … Now suppose there’s a bowl of Skittles with 150,000,000 Skittles, and 20,000 Skittles have a lethal poison, and can’t be distinguished from the others, only this time the Skittles are white American males, what are you going to do, leave the country? This question? Where did the numbers come from? 150,000,000 and 20,000 specifically. Regardless of your response to the above, I can answer the “what are you going to do, leave the country?” part now: No, I have no intention of leaving the country (outside of some vacations and the occasional business trip). ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/171 "2018-08-23T18:55:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think this point is as clear-cut as you seem to think so. For starters, I think you’ve slipped up here, because the normal phrasing I hear is “immigrants don’t commit crimes at a higher rate …”. By adding in the adjective “illegal” and focusing on that subset of immigrants, I suspect you’ve made the case harder for yourself to prove (but perhaps I’m wrong). What’s your cite for this? I’m responding to your implication that cutting or changing immigration would reduce crime. The infamous ‘skittles analogy’. Do you have a cite supporting this assertion? If not, you’re making an assertion without evidence, and what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/172 "2018-08-23T18:59:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m responding to your implication that cutting or changing immigration would reduce crime. The infamous ‘skittles analogy’. Do you have a cite supporting this assertion? > > If not, you’re making an assertion without evidence, and what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. What was my assertion? Like, could you quote it? Here is yours: > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Illegal immigrants don’t commit crimes at higher rates than the rest of the population. … I’ll ask again: do you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/173 "2018-08-23T19:04:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ll ask again: do you have a cite for that? Here is a nice article about it: [Mollie Tibbetts’ death is being used to push debunked ideas about illegal immigration and violent crime](https://www.businessinsider.com/undocumented-aliens-violent-crime-murder-statistics-data-2018-8) From that article: > [@](#): > > These recent studies encompassing large data sets suggest that increased immigration — both legal and illegal — is not tied to higher rates of violent crime and in fact appears correlated with its decrease ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/174 "2018-08-23T19:25:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Dodge what question? It was a response to post #164 by Little Nemo, which didn’t include a question. He made a statement there. Exactly. And it made no sense, which was why I went “Huhwhat?” You were talking about legal immigration from Mexico, Little Nemo pointed out the absence of same over a period of decades, and your question was, in that context, out of left field, an apparent attempt to change the subject rather than deal with **Nemo** ’s response. [Nick Danger voice]Didn’t I already say this on the other side of the record?[/Nick Danger] > [@](#): > > This question? > > Where did the numbers come from? 150,000,000 and 20,000 specifically. > > Regardless of your response to the above, I can answer the “what are you going to do, leave the country?” part now: No, I have no intention of leaving the country (outside of some vacations and the occasional business trip). The numbers are somewhat guesswork. There are probably a bit fewer than 150M white males in the U.S. As **manson1972** ’s link says, the evidence supports there being less violence by immigrants (either legal or illegal) than by persons born here, and my 20,000/150,000,000 was to indicate a slightly higher ratio of poisonous Skittles in the white American male Skittles bag than in the illegal immigrant bag. If you’re scared of the illegal immigrants’ Skittles, my point was that white male American Skittles should have you running for the border. You say you’re not, so I downrate accordingly your concern about the immigrant Skittles. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/175 "2018-08-23T19:36:18Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Surprised (not really) there isn’t a topic on this board already discussing the implications of the illegal alien allegedly killing the (up until now) missing Iowa student > > It’s an anathema to (what I consider) this boards consensus, or general zeitgeist, that unfettered immigration is good and anything outside of that (a wall, enforcement of illegal immigration) is morally (among other things) wrong. Anyway, to get back to the beginning, the whole notion of this this thread is a crock. We have ~18,000 murders a year in this country. That’s ~50 per day. Hewey apparently thinks the reason there wasn’t already a thread about this particular murder, this one out of 50, was the board’s liberal consensus. This on one of the biggest news days of the summer, hours after the conviction of one of Trump’s closest associates on multiple charges, and the multiple guilty pleas of another of his closest associates. It was all a liberal plot that on such a day, we didn’t go to the national equivalent of a police blotter, and pick this particular murder out of the pile to make a big deal of. What a crock. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/176 "2018-08-23T19:51:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What was my assertion? Like, could you quote it? I assumed your meaning, but I hear you suggesting I’m in error. How about we save the guessing games, and you state what you’re asserting? > [@](#): > > I’ll ask again: do you have a cite for that? In fact I do, but since you seem to be saying I’m not clear on your assertion, I’d like to hear your assertion before you pull that football away. We might as well agree what we’re arguing about, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/177 "2018-08-23T19:54:01Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > It’s an anathema to (what I consider) this boards consensus, or general zeitgeist, that unfettered immigration is good and anything outside of that (a wall, enforcement of illegal immigration) is morally (among other things) wrong. Just to reinforce: this is a complete straw man argument which you cannot support. You are claiming that it is the consensus of (the liberals of) this board that there should be no restriction on immigration and no enforcement of immigration laws. I challenge you to support your claim. Note that it’s going to take more than 2 or 3 quotes to do so, you have to somehow show that it is the majority view. Not sure how you could even do that. Here is what I think most liberals support: [ul] [li]First and most important, immigration law reform so that enforcement is actually possible. [/li] [li]Not wasting money on a giant wall that will be ineffective. If interdiction is necessary, make it smart not just big and showy. [/li] [li]The government should follow the law for those seeking asylum.[/li] [li]Those who have been in the country peacefully for a number of years should be given considerations above those who have just arrived or who are attempting to arrive illegally (definitions of terms to be worked out so they make sense). This should be part of immigration law reform.[/li] [li]In order to reduce crime among immigrant communities, federal immigration officials should not expect local police to ask for legal resident papers while they are doing their jobs of protecting all residents (not just citizens) from crime. [/li] [li]There should be an absolute end to ethnic profiling by any government official at any level. [/li] [li]There should be an end to tricking peaceful if undocumented immigrants who are following accepted procedures for becoming legal, to show up somewhere and then get arrested.[/li] [li]Brutality should not be the MO of any government agency; arrest should not be so vile as to also constitute punishment.[/li][/ul] There are probably more, but these will do for a start. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/178 "2018-08-23T20:04:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How did that work out when your ancestors came to America? Do you feel that they were a problem for America and shouldn’t have been allowed in? Do you feel like they were a burden on America? > > Immigration is what built America. Cutting off the flow of new immigrants hurts America’s future. That was over 120 years ago. That was then, this is now. We are simply becoming too damn crowded to allow millions more in every year. Do we have to be as crowded as Japan before we finally say enough is enough? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/179 "2018-08-23T20:11:44Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > That was over 120 years ago. That was then, this is now. > > We are simply becoming too damn crowded to allow millions more in every year. Do we have to be as crowded as Japan before we finally say enough is enough? There is plenty of room in [these states.](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density) > [@](#): > > 42 Nevada 25.4 > 43 Nebraska 24.3 > 44 Idaho 19.5 > 45 New Mexico 17.2 > 46 South Dakota 11.1 > 47 North Dakota 10.5 > 48 Montana 7.0 > 49 Wyoming 6.0 > 50 Alaska 1.3 > (pop. per square mile) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030/180 "2018-08-23T20:18:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > We are simply becoming too damn crowded to allow millions more in every year. Do we have to be as crowded as Japan before we finally say enough is enough? So, overpopulation is the problem? Japan has a population density of 334 people/km^2, the US is 33. We’ve still got room if that’s your concern. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mollie-tibbetts-missing-college-student-allegedly-killed-by-illegal-alien/820030.md?page=10)