# Mom Busts Dad For 15 Year Old Custodial "Kidnap" -- Now What? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280 "2010-06-07T15:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/201 "2010-06-09T23:01:08Z")
The person who put these kids, in this spot, is the Dad. That’s where the blame lies. He’s no different than a parent with a grow op, or a cat burglar. Parents who participate in criminal activities are knowingly running the risk that they could get caught and their child traumatized, finding itself effectively abandoned and being cared for by persons unfamiliar to them. This could have come to pass at any time during their young lives. He was willing to risk that, and they are paying the freight for his choice, as do all children of criminals. Yes, in a couple of short years, they will both be old enough to decide for themselves where they want to live. That is as it should be. It’s also true that one day they will have spouses and children of their own, most likely. Even if they can’t comprehend it now, if their view of their mother is obscured by loyalty to the only parent they were allowed to have a relationship with, they will one day understand it differently, I believe. Regardless kidnappers belong in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/202 "2010-06-10T01:40:12Z")
> [@wendylee815](#): > > i have to wonder about the custody hearings 15 years ago. It’s very difficult for a father to gain custody, even today. I’ve seen instances where the mothers were so vindictive that I wouldnt leave my kids with them for an hour let alone a lifetime. For all we know the mother was a lousy mom, the court didnt recognize it, and the father felt the need to get them away from her. Perhaps she was trying to “poisen” them against the father, a common occurance. Thing is, we just dont know what happened 15 years ago. Jailing the father will only intensify the childrens pain right now. If she had just worked with him to build a relationship with them, I think it would have worked out a lot better for the kids. Dont put words in my mouth, I think what he did was wrong, but the kids?, they want thier dad out of jail I presume. Well countless times I’ve seen children not want their parent arrested.. but say if the warrant is valid and confirmed then regardless of the cries and faces the children may give that parent is going to jail. No doubt that this was probably a typically nasty custody situation.. but unless he can articulate some idea that the kids were in an immediate physical/mental threat then what he really did was STICK IT TO MOM. I’ve seen this countless times. and as Oakminster has pointed out with his/her experience, I’ll point out that frequently its not the best interest of the child that sparks this.. its bitterness.. and an attempt to strike back. And getting to the second point.. you can’t reward defying court orders. HELL who would follow? That’s why like Diogenes pointed out its not up to the kids or moms discretion concerning the prosecution.. ie that’s where you get “The People” from.. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/203 "2010-06-10T02:31:55Z")
> [@SkeptiJess](#): > > OK, then – He took THEIR mother!!! > > Whether or not the children are happy now, whether or not he raised them well – he stole from his children the right to know their mother. This is not inconsequential – the loss of a parent is a very serious loss for a child. The loss of the father is in their near future. Like it or not, he is the only parent they have ever known. They will likely be placed with a stranger who put their dad in jail. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/204 "2010-06-10T02:43:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The loss of the father is in their near future. Like it or not, he is the only parent they have ever known. They will likely be placed with a stranger who put their dad in jail. And what’s the meaningful alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/205 "2010-06-10T02:44:55Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They will likely be placed with a stranger who put their dad in jail. No. Their dad put himself in jail, by his own deliberate criminal conduct. This is not anyone’s fault but his. He chose to break the law. He chose to willfully, deliberately, and contumaciously violate a court order. He chose to deprive their mother of any contact with her children for 15 years. He chose to deprive them of any contact with their mother for 15 years. He made all the decisions for everybody involved. He was wrong to do that. Now, he’s going to pay the price for his wrongful conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/206 "2010-06-10T02:50:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The loss of the father is in their near future. Like it or not, he is the only parent they have ever known. They will likely be placed with a stranger who put their dad in jail. Yep. Pretty shitty scenario caused by the fathers selfishness. Luckily, there is one positive that comes of this mess he created: His going to jail will no doubt cause dozens, maybe hundreds of future mothers or fathers thinking of pulling a stunt like this to think twice. If the only price to pay for that is 2 kids learning the truth about their father and being unhappy, that’s a pretty damn good deal. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/207 "2010-06-10T05:48:41Z")
Swimming against the flow (mostly), if I were the mom, I would have let the kids go. (Meaning, after I had found them.) Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, the kidnapping was wrong, Yeah, it’s enabling and/or rewarding wrongdoing. Still, I wouldn’t rip my kids’ world apart for the principle. That said, now that the matter has been brought into the legal system, we as a society have no choice but to lower the hammer. BTW, as to the issue of scary quotes, which struck me at once, suppose someone opened a thread that said, “Date 'rape” - is is really rape?" I think most people would see the problem. This was kidnapping. Dad is wrong. What I would have done as mom doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/208 "2010-06-10T14:35:16Z")
And I will repeat what I said… The girl wanted no contact with her mother. Her actions were most likely based on what the father told her. (What else could it be?) A father who was looking out for the best interests of his child would not poison them against their mother. That’s some pretty powerful mind games to make someone shun their own mother. Whether he told her she was bad, was neglectful, she abandoned them, she didn’t care - most likely it was seriously incorrect. If he told her it would be disloyal and a betrayal of his “love” to talk to her… Whatever the reason, it is pretty sad. I agree too - very often, these disputes are not to “save” the child, it is to stick it to the other spouse. I had a ex-co-worker who was a caonfirmed alcoholic (ex because he went on a bender for 3 weeks). His wife was fooling aorund and he went to several of us from work and asked us to testify, falsely, that his wife neglected the babies. (We all told him to “fuck off”) Bad as she was, she was better than him. The guy had no job, no money, could not hold a job or stay away from liquor, was a severe alcoholic who died on skid row 10 years later aged 35, but wanted to take the kids away from their mother? Some people have a warped view of their value as a parent. He just wanted to make her suffer. Could be worse. At least the kids are almost adult and more able to understand the situation. What if it had happened 5 or 8 years ago, when they were 8 or 12 years old? What would the father have done to the kids he supposedly loved if he’d gotten arrested then? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/209 "2010-06-10T16:24:29Z")
Does anybody really know he poisoned the well about the mother? The kids would be expected to want to stay in their comfort zone. They are getting uprooted from the only life they have known. The best solution would have been for her to confront the father and hopefully the mother to be introduced into the kids life. I doubt they would have run off. It is the only life they have known and you would have a hard time convincing teens to abandon their life and go on the lam. Vengeance against the father will only result in rejection of the mother by the kids .That is not the result she would likely want. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/210 "2010-06-10T16:33:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Does anybody really know he poisoned the well about the mother? For ghod’s sake! What the hell do you think he’s been telling them since they were small children when they asked to speak to Mommy? If you can come up with something different than: 1. “Mommy is dead!”, 2. “Mommy doesn’t want you any more!”, or 3. “Mommy is evil and I am protecting you from them!” Pray, tell us. In fact, I’m pretty sure we can eliminate #1, because if that were true, the daughter would have immediately shown shock and surprise because Mommy is still alive, then she would have confronted Daddy as to why he lied. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/211 "2010-06-10T16:39:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Vengeance against the father will only result in rejection of the mother by the kids .That is not the result she would likely want. This isn’t vengeance, it’s justice, IMO. Yes, there will be unpleasant consequences in the short term, and perhaps long term, but ignoring the ex’s abuse of the system and illegal actions will not make things better. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/212 "2010-06-10T16:53:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Vengeance against the father will\*\* only\*\* result in rejection of the mother by the kids (Bolding mine) No- as I and others have said over and over again, it results in a strong deterrent to future kidnappers of this sort. Dozens of kids, maybe more, will now not have to be put through this horrible situation. [QUOTE=gonzomax] That is not the result she would likely want. [/QUOTE] What you want is often different from what is best. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/213 "2010-06-10T17:28:40Z")
Update on MSNBC (with my selective quoting of stuff I found interesting): [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37610827/ns/technology\_and\_science-security/page/2/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37610827/ns/technology_and_science-security/page/2/) > [@](#): > > The couple was contemplating divorce in 1995 when Sagala returned from work to find the children, then 3 and 2, gone, Camou said. > … > It’s not clear if she ever divorced Utrera. > … > prosecutors in San Bernardino were checking whether Utrera had filed for divorce or did anything to make a legal claim on the custody of the children in another state, Camou said. > … ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/214 "2010-06-10T17:33:32Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Does anybody really know he poisoned the well about the mother? The kids would be expected to want to stay in their comfort zone. They are getting uprooted from the only life they have known. > The best solution would have been for her to confront the father and hopefully the mother to be introduced into the kids life. I doubt they would have run off. You mean because of how he didn’t run off the last time the law told him the mother was entitled to custody of the kids? Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/215 "2010-06-10T17:43:52Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You mean because of how he didn’t run off the last time the law told him the mother was entitled to custody of the kids? Oh, wait. Read the MSNBC article - it does not sound like that is what happened. Happy to be shown to be wrong - but the MSNBC piece says that they were contemplating divorce, and he then left with the kids. That is different from they were divorced, she had custody, and he took them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/216 "2010-06-10T17:56:27Z")
So there was no evil court system that stole his children from him? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/217 "2010-06-10T18:08:45Z")
So there was no custody order that he violated by “kidnapping” the children? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/218 "2010-06-10T18:16:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > So there was no custody order that he violated by “kidnapping” the children? Interesting. Are you suggesting running off with the the kids before the courts have a chance to determine custody is somehow better than doing it afterwords? They are equally despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/219 "2010-06-10T18:18:27Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > So there was no custody order that he violated by “kidnapping” the children? Interesting. I can’t seem to find the word “kidnapping”(quote tags added) in the dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/220 "2010-06-10T18:18:32Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Are you suggesting running off with the the kids before the courts have a chance to determine custody is somehow better than doing it afterwords? They are equally despicable. Interesting legal question. If my wife takes our kids to Disneyland without my approval - is she guilty of anything? If she takes our kids to San Diego for the weekend without telling me, has she done anything wrong? He took off with the kids, and so far I have not seen anything that says that he did not have that right. Not defending - just curious how this plays out under family law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280.md?page=12)