# Mom Busts Dad For 15 Year Old Custodial "Kidnap" -- Now What? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280 "2010-06-07T15:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/221 "2010-06-10T18:21:18Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Are you suggesting running off with the the kids before the courts have a chance to determine custody is somehow better than doing it afterwords? They are equally despicable. I’m sure he had the best of intentions when he separated them from their mother, ran off to Mexico, then eventually came back to another part of the U.S. and got a drivers license using a fake name. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/222 "2010-06-10T18:23:50Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Interesting legal question. If my wife takes our kids to Disneyland without my approval - is she guilty of anything? If she takes our kids to San Diego for the weekend without telling me, has she done anything wrong? > > He took off with the kids, and so far I have not seen anything that says that he did not have that right. > > Not defending - just curious how this plays out under family law. _Really?_ You actually wonder how the court system would take one parent denying access of children to another parent for fifteen years? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/223 "2010-06-10T18:25:36Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Read the MSNBC article - it does not sound like that is what happened. > > Happy to be shown to be wrong - but the MSNBC piece says that they were contemplating divorce, and he then left with the kids. That is different from they were divorced, she had custody, and he took them. You can’t just take the kids away from their parent even before a divorce, though. Mother or father, both parents have a right to see their children. As **Bootis** called it, despicable. He left her in pain worrying about her children for fifteen years. That’s disgusting behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/224 "2010-06-10T18:29:24Z")
The following is not relevant to the particular case at hand, due to the kids presently being in the same country in which they were originally abducted, and due to the kids being 16 or older, but it might be of interest to folks anyway (also, please note that it only deals with family law, not criminal law): > [@](#): > > [[HAGUE] CONVENTION ON THE CIVIL ASPECTS OF INTERNATIONAL CHILD ABDUCTION > (Concluded 25 October 1980)](http://hcch.e-vision.nl/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=24) > > . . . . > > Article 3 > The removal or the retention of a child is to be considered wrongful where - > a) it is in breach of rights of custody attributed to a person, an institution or any other body, either jointly or alone, under the law of the State in which the child was habitually resident immediately before the removal or retention; and > b) at the time of removal or retention those rights were actually exercised, either jointly or alone, or would have been so exercised but for the removal or retention. > > . . . . > > Article 4 > . . . . The Convention shall cease to apply when the child attains the age of 16 years. > > . . . . > > Article 12 > Where a child has been wrongfully removed or retained in terms of Article 3 and, at the date of the commencement of the proceedings before the judicial or administrative authority of the Contracting State where the child is, a period of less than one year has elapsed from the date of the wrongful removal or retention, the authority concerned shall order the return of the child forthwith. > The judicial or administrative authority, even where the proceedings have been commenced after the expiration of the period of one year referred to in the preceding paragraph, shall also order the return of the child, unless it is demonstrated that the child is now settled in its new environment. > > . . . . > > Article 13 > Notwithstanding the provisions of the preceding Article, the judicial or administrative authority of the requested State is not bound to order the return of the child if the person, institution or other body which opposes its return establishes that – > . . . . > b) there is a grave risk that his or her return would expose the child to physical or psychological harm or otherwise place the child in an intolerable situation. > The judicial or administrative authority may also refuse to order the return of the child if it finds that the child objects to being returned and has attained an age and degree of maturity at which it is appropriate to take account of its views. ---
**Author:** ![CRich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRich)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/225 "2010-06-10T18:30:29Z")
I’ve been very surprised by the number of people giving Dad a total pass for what he did. Would you be as forgiving if it had been the Mom who did it? How can that not be seen as being terribly hurtful and destructive for the kids? My husband was one of those unusual men who got custody of his children from his first marriage. His ex-wife was a drug-using idiot with extremely poor judgment who is to this day the stupidest person I have ever met. However, we never denied her children their right to know and have contact with their mother. There were times throughout the years when she disappeared from their lives, and there were times when we took steps to limit their availability due to her poor judgment and our concern for their safety and well-being, but no matter what, she was still their mother and they had a right to know her. I don’t understand people justifying what this man did–no matter what the mother did, or didn’t do (and how does that really have any bearing on this? ) She had a right to know her kids and they had a right to know her. He took that away from the three of them and the fact that resuming that relationship now will be difficult doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands in the air and say “Oh well, what’s done is done.” ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/226 "2010-06-10T18:31:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Really?_ You actually wonder how the court system would take one parent denying access of children to another parent for fifteen years? No - I was wondering where the courts have drawn the line. If I come home today, and my wife has taken the kids to San Diego without my permission - can I have her arrested? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/227 "2010-06-10T18:33:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Really?_ You actually wonder how the court system would take one parent denying access of children to another parent for fifteen years? Do provide us with a cite where your presumption of how a court would rule is illustrated. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/228 "2010-06-10T18:37:37Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > No - I was wondering where the courts have drawn the line. If I come home today, and my wife has taken the kids to San Diego without my permission - can I have her arrested? If she doesn’t bring them back, you sure as hell can. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/229 "2010-06-10T18:39:38Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > He took off with the kids, and so far I have not seen anything that says that he did not have that right. > > Not defending - just curious how this plays out under family law. I have no idea about family law, but one thing we’ve seen that suggests he probably didn’t have that right is that he is in jail. [QUOTE=Czarcasm] I’m sure he had the best of intentions when he separated them from their mother, ran off to Mexico, then eventually came back to another part of the U.S. and got a drivers license using a fake name. [/QUOTE] But, it must be assumed she only wanted the kids to sell for booze money. It should be assumed that when _fathers_ “kidnap” their children, it is because the mother must have just wanted booze money. Because, man, she must be a bitch for not forgetting about it, and stirring the pot you know? And since she’s a bitch, I just hate her and since I hate her, the father must be the good guy, and if he’s the good guy, then he certainly didn’t do anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/230 "2010-06-10T18:42:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If she doesn’t bring them back, you sure as hell can. But that would require a court order - has the mom presented one? The MSNBC article indicated that she might not have even filed for divorce. This will be an interesting case to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/231 "2010-06-10T18:50:30Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > No - I was wondering where the courts have drawn the line. If I come home today, and my wife has taken the kids to San Diego without my permission - can I have her arrested? I can’t speak for what y’all do down there in our southern colonies, but here in Ontario there are two ways to deal with a parent who takes his or her child against the will of the other parent without court sanction. The first is to call the police and explain that there is an emergency, e.g. the abducting parent is off his or her nut and might harm the child or permit the child to be harmed. The second, under s. 36(2) of our Children’s Law Reform Act, is to get an order from the court directing that the police locate, apprehend and return the child. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/232 "2010-06-10T18:51:36Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Poor kids. They are being sacrificed on the alter of “precedence”. > “We have to take them away and imprison dad. We wouldn’t want to set the wrong precedence.” > > Unfortunately, the best outcome for the kids would have been for Mom to contact Dad, outside the legal system, and work out a way to be reintroduced into the kids lives. But that would involve Mom not wanting to exact punishment, being willing to settle for a smaller role in the kids lives, and no one talking to the authorities. That just wasn’t going to happen. Yes because his past behavior shows he’s so reasonable. He kept her children away for 15 years and would have continued if he could. What makes you believe that he would suddenly be willing to work out a role for her in the kids lives? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/233 "2010-06-10T18:52:28Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > But, it must be assumed she only wanted the kids to sell for booze money. It should be assumed that when _fathers_ “kidnap” their children, it is because the mother must have just wanted booze money. Because, man, she must be a bitch for not forgetting about it, and stirring the pot you know? And since she’s a bitch, I just hate her and since I hate her, the father must be the good guy, and if he’s the good guy, then he certainly didn’t do anything wrong. Yeah. I have no idea where the whole drug/booze thing came from. It’s like people are trying their best to make her seem as evil as she can be. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/234 "2010-06-10T18:57:41Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The MSNBC article indicated that she might not have even filed for divorce. And also states that she is married to another person, and that he lived with the kids in a trailer. This has potential to turn into a terrific Jerry Springer show: possible bigamy, international child abduction, poisoned minds of children who will have a say in the custod dispute, and most importatly, a trailer. What’s the bet that someone is already securing the made-for-TV rights? ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/235 "2010-06-10T19:07:44Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Interesting legal question. If my wife takes our kids to Disneyland without my approval - is she guilty of anything? If she takes our kids to San Diego for the weekend without telling me, has she done anything wrong? > > He took off with the kids, and so far I have not seen anything that says that he did not have that right. > > Not defending - just curious how this plays out under family law. Here in Ontario, in the absence of a custody order both parents are presumed to share legal custody. One parent cannot without the permission of the other travel out of the province. In fact it’s now recommended that when one parent travels alone withe the children they have a notarized travel letter from the other parent approving of the trip. When my then 16 and 17 yr old children visited their cousins in the US without their father, stepfather or myself wee drafted a “joint” letter and had all three signatures notarized. Join is in quotes because there was no discussion. I drafted the letter, had my husbands and my signatures notarized and made an appointment for the kids to escort their dad to a notary So in general your wife taking yournkids for the day without your prior knowledge is not a crime, but if she didn’t come back for 15 years it sure would be. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/236 "2010-06-10T19:14:54Z")
This case is not really as interesting as you guys are making it (ETA: legally I mean). Under California law, both parents have equal custody to their children (absent a custody agreement). So, sure, you can zip off to Disneyland for a day or two without permission. But things change when you are denying the other access to the children. Especially for a period of years. That’s called child abduction with custodial right (to distinguish it from child abduction without custodial right). Let’s throw a little pertinent [law](http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/277-280.html) into the situation: Start at 278.5 PC and keep reading. Especially focus on the section (278.7 PC) that details what you should do if you are taking your child to prevent harm to them. The whole report within a reasonable time thing. ETA: If you are interested in reading about kidnapping (no quotes) under California law that’s 207 PC. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/237 "2010-06-10T19:21:05Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Here in Ontario, in the absence of a custody order both parents are presumed to share legal custody. One parent cannot without the permission of the other travel out of the province. One joint-custodial parent can travel out of the province with the kids without the permission of the other joint-custodial parent, but if the other joint-custodial parent protests (e.g. police emergency or FLA s. 36(2) court order), the children can be reeled back in. That being said, a signed travel consent is always a very good thing to have, so as to avoid delays en route. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/238 "2010-06-10T19:23:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For ghod’s sake! What the hell do you think he’s been telling them since they were small children when they asked to speak to Mommy? If you can come up with something different than: > > 1. “Mommy is dead!”, > 2. “Mommy doesn’t want you any more!”, or > 3. “Mommy is evil and I am protecting you from them!” > Pray, tell us. In fact, I’m pretty sure we can eliminate #1, because if that were true, the daughter would have immediately shown shock and surprise because Mommy is still alive, then she would have confronted Daddy as to why he lied. Double gods sake. Do you know what he said? You are speculating. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/239 "2010-06-10T19:28:24Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > _Really?_ You actually wonder how the court system would take one parent denying access of children to another parent for fifteen years? > > Do provide us with a cite where your presumption of how a court would rule is illustrated. As \*\*Doctor Who \*\*has noted, have a look at section 278.5 of the the California Penal Code. Note that the length of abduction is an aggravating factor. > [@](#): > > [[CALIFORNIA] PENAL CODE > SECTION 277-280](http://law.justia.com/california/codes/pen/277-280.html) > . . . . > > 278.5. (a) Every person who takes, entices away, keeps, withholds, or conceals a child and maliciously deprives a lawful custodian of a right to custody, or a person of a right to visitation, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both that fine and imprisonment, or by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three years, a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or both that fine and imprisonment. > > . . . . > 278.6. (a) At the sentencing hearing following a conviction for a violation of Section 278 or 278.5, or both, the court shall consider any relevant factors and circumstances in aggravation, including, but not limited to, all of the following: > . . . . > (9) The length of the abduction. I leave it to you to provide a reflective survey of the case law dealing with s. 278.5 and s. 278.6, 'cause I’m a fat lazy bastard at the best of times. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/240 "2010-06-10T19:34:09Z")
Can we lay this blame upon the State who decides that a woman’s right to custody is greater than a man’s? As an aside, why is the default for child custody to go with the mother and the father paying child support? Why is the default not a 50-50 arrangement? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280.md?page=13)