# Mom Busts Dad For 15 Year Old Custodial "Kidnap" -- Now What? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280 "2010-06-07T15:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/141 "2010-06-09T14:29:55Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But how do we know that the mother wasn’t genuinely the better parent and that’s why she was given custody? We don’t. Nor do we know whether the mother was a crack whore, who was given custody by default, or not. I never claimed what the father did was right, I simply claimed that if he thought he was getting fucked over by the family courts, running off with the kids, _from his viewpoint_, is probably the better option than the other two bullshit options **even sven** proposed. > [@Freudian Slit](#): > > Also, if the genders had been flipped and the mother kidnapped the kids from the father, would you be on her side? Or would the answer be that she must have been a terrible parent because otherwise the evil man-hating courts would never have given her custody? I’m not on his side. I pointed out that if the choice is to be made between the choices presented by **even sven** , then running off with the kids is probably his best option, _from his viewpoint_. > [@Death of Rats](#): > > The 84% is a meaningless number without comparing it to how many households have the father as the primary child caregiver in the family. Is the primary child caregiver the one who works to keep a roof over the child’s head and keep the child free from starvation? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/142 "2010-06-09T14:58:19Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Is the primary child caregiver the one who works to keep a roof over the child’s head and keep the child free from starvation? No, it is the person who directly takes care of the kids needs. When I was growing up, my father worked and my mother was a stay-at-home mom. My Dad was gone either at the office or traveling almost constantly and I only saw him a few hours a week and my mom took care of the us kids. He may have been the primary breadwinner and is a good and loving father, but my Mom was definitely the primary caregiver to us kids. I work and my wife is a SAHM. I do a lot with my daughter, love her to pieces and bring home the money, but my Wife is the primary caregiver to our daughter. Bringing home the money is not the end-all and be-all of caring for the child. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/143 "2010-06-09T15:07:18Z")
Right, but taking care of the kids day-to-day _isn’t_ the be-all-and-end-all of raising a child, either. There still has to be a source of income coming in to keep the child off the streets, educated and well-fed, yet only one of these is reflected in law (in most western countries). The “primary caregiver” definition is just a legal fig leaf for an essentially sexist policy. The definition was made in full knowledge that the overwhelming number of marriages where one spouse works are set up so that the man works, whilst the woman stays at home. So of course the 84% figure is going to accord with the number of women who are SAHM, but that completely ignores the question of whether the definition of “primary caregiver” you’ve just given is a suitable and fair definition in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/144 "2010-06-09T15:15:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s ridiculous. Her children were kidnapped and **you’re saying** she’s to blame for the fact that it took her fifteen years to find them. Bolding mine. Since I did not say that, do me the favor of not saying that I said that. Having said that – I will guaran GD tee you that if my kids were really and truly “stolen” from me (to use the chattel motif many here seem to like), and I had my game together, was not off on lifestyle frolics and detours of my own, etc., and the kids were in an Orlando suburb under their own name – no, this would not have gone on for fifteen years. Fifteen minutes, sure. Fifteen days, maybe. Not much longer, on these facts. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/145 "2010-06-09T15:21:14Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I’m not on his side. I pointed out that if the choice is to be made between the choices presented by **even sven** , then running off with the kids is probably his best option, _from his viewpoint_. If best option = most selfish option without regard to the clusterfuck he is setting up for his kids to inevitably have to deal with for the rest of their lives, then yep. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/146 "2010-06-09T15:23:07Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > That’s ridiculous. The father’s goal is to spend time with his kids. From his viewpoint, “kidnapping” the kids and bringing them up himself for 15 years was obviously preferable to trying to overturn the law (84% of custody battles in the US end with the mother gaining custody: the same ratio between fathers and mothers gaining custody as in 1994. _Progress just isn’t being made_.) which obviously is going to take a hell of a lot of time, by which he’s missed his kids growing up, or attempting to make a useless point which will only be used against him in a family court case. > > I have a hard time demonising a father who concludes that family courts are a complete farce. He did _not_ “kidnap” the kids-he kidnapped the kids. Stop soft-soaping his illegal actions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/147 "2010-06-09T15:26:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Since I did not say that, do me the favor of not saying that I said that. > > Having said that – I will guaran GD tee you that if my kids were really and truly “stolen” from me (to use the chattel motif many here seem to like), and I had my game together, was not off on lifestyle frolics and detours of my own, etc., and the kids were in an Orlando suburb under their own name – no, this would not have gone on for fifteen years. Fifteen minutes, sure. Fifteen days, maybe. Not much longer, on these facts. I’m sure the parents of all those children that have been kidnapped over the years would have a bone to pick with you, as you seem to think that most of them weren’t sincere in their grief and desperation. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/148 "2010-06-09T15:30:29Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > …running off with the kids is probably his best option, _from his viewpoint_. This is true of any kidnapper, parental or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/149 "2010-06-09T15:31:29Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > I’m not on his side. I pointed out that if the choice is to be made between the choices presented by **even sven** , then running off with the kids is probably his best option, _from his viewpoint_. When a childless woman kidnaps a strange baby to raise as her own, it’s probably the best choice _from her viewpoint._. When a man in desperate financial trouble sets fire to his own warehouse, it’s probably the best choice _from his viewpoint_. When a person embezzles money to send their kids to college, it’s probably the best choice _from their viewpoint_, but who the fuck cares? It doesn’t mitigate their wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/150 "2010-06-09T15:32:29Z")
Damn it, paused for rhetorical flourishes. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/151 "2010-06-09T15:36:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He did _not_ “kidnap” the kids-he kidnapped the kids. Stop soft-soaping his illegal actions. No, he “kidnapped” them. Do a survey of your friends and co-workers (no, really, do). 90% of them, when you ask them what a “kidnapping” is, will make no mention of a custodial dispute gone wrong, or a custodial visit overstayed by two hours (technically and legally, a “kidnapping!!!”). 90% (much more, but I’ll settle for 90%) will have in mind, and will mention, an Adam Walsh scenario – stranger abduction. I remember first being disillusioned with those milk cartons when I learned that the great majority were custodial disputes and saying – “WTF should I care about someone else’s f’d up custodial arrangements?” English is the language as used by English-speakers. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/152 "2010-06-09T15:39:13Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > No, he “kidnapped” them. Sorry, but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/153 "2010-06-09T15:43:52Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > English is the language as used by English-speakers. And kidnapping is a legal term that doesn’t contain parentheses. I can _guarantee_ you that when this goes to court, neither the prosecutor or the kidnapper’s lawyer will be doing that “quote” thing with their fingers when the word is spoken, and you certainly won’t find it in quote marks in any of the paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/154 "2010-06-09T15:44:03Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > No, he “kidnapped” them. Do a survey of your friends and co-workers (no, really, do). 90% of them, when you ask them what a “kidnapping” is, will make no mention of a custodial dispute gone wrong, or a custodial visit overstayed by two hours (technically and legally, a “kidnapping!!!”). 90% (much more, but I’ll settle for 90%) will have in mind, and will mention, an Adam Walsh scenario – stranger abduction. I remember first being disillusioned with those milk cartons when I learned that the great majority were custodial disputes and saying – “WTF should I care about someone else’s f’d up custodial arrangements?” > > English is the language as used by English-speakers. Ask your friends to name a planet. 90% of them will not name Neptune. That doesn’t make Neptune a “planet” ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/155 "2010-06-09T15:48:44Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > That doesn’t make Neptune a “planet” But Neptune **is** a planet!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/156 "2010-06-09T15:50:29Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > But Neptune **is** a planet!!! You got it, its a planet, not a “planet” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/157 "2010-06-09T15:50:54Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > But Neptune **is** a planet!!! And kidnapping is kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/158 "2010-06-09T15:52:35Z")
Alleged kidnapping. Dad hasn’t been convicted of anything yet, has he? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/159 "2010-06-09T15:54:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And kidnapping is a legal term that doesn’t contain parentheses. I can _guarantee_ you that when this goes to court, neither the prosecutor or the kidnapper’s lawyer will be doing that “quote” thing with their fingers when the word is spoken, and you certainly won’t find it in quote marks in any of the paperwork. I’ll deal with “parentheses” another time. Shows how much you’ve been in court. If defense counsel’s opening statement contains the word “kidnap,” or begins with anything other than the following, I would be astonished: > [@](#): > > Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this is a complicated case beginning with an unhappy marriage and some innocent babies, but all you need to know is that this is a story about a man who, if he’s guilty of anything, is guilty of loving his children too much. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280/160 "2010-06-09T15:55:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Alleged kidnapping. Dad hasn’t been convicted of anything yet, has he? I can accept alleged kidnapping, but never alleged “kidnapping”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mom-busts-dad-for-15-year-old-custodial-kidnap-now-what/542280.md?page=9)