# Mom's "Apology" To Friends Without Kids **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487 "2014-05-28T18:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/281 "2014-06-01T04:38:16Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > No being gay is not a lifestyle choice. Neither is being born without the urge to procreate. Your “lifestyle choice” comment suggests to me that you expect gay people to also procreate because that’s just what everyone does. I find your lack of understanding of this concept offensive. Well that’s…bizarre. I don’t expect anyone to procreate, I’m thrilled for everyone to do whatever makes them happy. By the way, you were the one who said: > [@](#): > > So do you consider being child-free more or less weird than being gay? Just curious as to where you sit on the continuum of **lifestyles that aren’t the default choice**. Bolding mine, to emphasize that you were the one who stated that these various “lifestyles” are “choices.” It’s nice that you have a choice whether or not to have children, but FYI, gay people don’t have a choice whether or not to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/282 "2014-06-01T04:38:36Z")
> [@keturah](#): > > Oh and on your edit, jeez, you got even more ridiculous. Yes, us mommies expect gay people to procreate. Really?!? You are both a little nuts about topics involving children. Mommies line up to shoot the childfree. I saw it on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/283 "2014-06-01T04:46:50Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Now _I_ am confused; I never made a choice to want babies or not want them - I’ve never had any interest in them. Gay people don’t make a choice to be gay or not; they are born gay. Seems similar to me. How do _you_ think the two are different? Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that the “urge” to procreate really isn’t that universal. It’s pretty well accepted now that the true urge is actually sexual, and up until you know, 40 years ago, the urge to have sex pretty much led to procreating whether you wanted to or not. As soon as women got their hands on decent birth control, lo and behold the birth rate dropped and a lot of people choose not to have kids at all. So, you’re not all that unusual that you’ve decided you’re not interested enough in kids to have to raise one for 20 years…it’s simply a decision you can make for yourself now, god bless science that it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/284 "2014-06-01T04:48:14Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I just read that website. 15 weeks for maternity, 35 weeks for parental, and either parent is eligible. That’s pretty incredible. Of course, there’s also benefits paid for care of the elderly, care of sick children, _care of any family member_, etc. > > My wife just said “How the hell do they get anything done up there?” Not only do we get things done up here, but our economy has been kicking the Americans’ ass since the US housing/banking crisis sent the world into a recession. > [@keturah](#): > > No one has started a thread to condemn you and your wife for not having kids. Good try on the straw man, though. So far as I’m aware, no one has started a thread condemning anyone for having kids. They have, however, started threads on being dicks and using parenthood as an excuse for the dickish behavior. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/285 "2014-06-01T04:52:45Z")
Just a note to **Whisperer** , **curlie** and **Dread** : When you’re admitted to the dementia ward after your families have had enough of listening to your Alzheimic ramblings, wiping the remnants of your vitamized lunch off your chins, and scraping the shit out of your arse creases to prevent infection, you’d better be bloody grateful that SOMEONE had a kid to provide you that care. ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/286 "2014-06-01T05:06:53Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > Not only do we get things done up here, but our economy has been kicking the Americans’ ass since the US housing/banking crisis sent the world into a recession. And last I heard you got laid off. Interesting, given the kick ass economy… [QUOTE=Dread Pirate Jimbo] So far as I’m aware, no one has started a thread condemning anyone for having kids. They have, however, started threads on being dicks and using parenthood as an excuse for the dickish behavior. [/QUOTE] Your perception is…skewed. To say the least. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/287 "2014-06-01T05:13:20Z")
[QUOTE=curlcoat] Why would it be tax deductible? Daycare is for those kids you chose to have - I chose to have dogs, and when we have had to pay for a sitter when we were both out of town, it never occurred to us that it should be deductible. But again, for some reason you think you should get a break on care for your kid(s) because its about children? [/QUOTE] Children are dependent human beings; the tax code should be designed to assist human beings in being able to afford to live decent lives. A pretty good argument can be made that tax breaks for child care actually increase economic activity, since it keeps productive labor in the workforce. Dogs are property. They aren’t one millionth as important as humans. You should get tax breaks for dogs no more than you should be able to get tax breaks for buying a toaster. > [@](#): > > And it isn’t that children are too much trouble, it’s that these parents expect those of us who didn’t sign on for it to accommodate them continually. Maternity leave, baby changing stations Baby changing stations? Seriously, that’s a complaint? What’re you going to bitch about next? Water fountains? > [@](#): > > And of course, these blogs where mommies are proud to say that they drag their little kids everyone and you WILL deal with it. Well, life is dealing with other people. You go out in public, and you’re an unpleasant, stupid twit, and people have to deal with you. That’s life. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/288 "2014-06-01T05:13:50Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Bolding mine, to emphasize that you were the one who stated that these various “lifestyles” are “choices.” It’s nice that you have a choice whether or not to have children, but FYI, gay people don’t have a choice whether or not to be gay. You know what? I’m prepared to give you this point because the more I think about it, the more I am quite sure that the urge to procreate is not a choice any more than sexual preference, which means I am incorrect in my characterisation of this situation. The fact that our modern world allows people to live the life they want is fundamentally what has created this debate in the first place and, as you rightly pointed out upthread, it has been less than a half century for society to get its head around the concept that people who don’t want kids don’t have to have them and shouldn’t be treated like lepers for that state of affairs. I can recall from very early in my relationship with my wife her telling me that that she knew from a very young age that she would never have kids. She didn’t reach 30 and suddenly _choose_ to stay childfree; this was going to be it from Day 1. So allow me to rephrase then: Being made the butt of jokes, such as that in the OP, being condescended to by self-righteous people who think we are living a life that is “weird,” being asked if you have children in job interviews, saying no, then immediately being asked “Why?” as if it’s any of their business what I do or do not do with my bodily fluids, all this eventually gets on the nerves of the childfree person and eventually they respond, sometimes with vitriol. For my part, I will try to be better at recognizing and understanding that there are plenty of people who are born knowing that they will—they must—have kids and that that must be respected. But I will also expect the same in kind. Does this help? ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/289 "2014-06-01T05:15:58Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > So far as I’m aware, no one has started a thread condemning anyone for having kids. Nah, **curlcoat** doesn’t start her own threads as a rule, but she’s got her radar happening to jump into any other thread where kids are mentioned. No kid gets away with having a right to exist in her world. > [@](#): > > They have, however, started threads on being dicks and using parenthood as an excuse for the dickish behavior. Yeah? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/290 "2014-06-01T05:23:21Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > So allow me to rephrase then: Being made the butt of jokes, such as that in the OP, being condescended to by self-righteous people who think we are living a life that is “weird,” being asked if you have children in job interviews, saying no, then immediately being asked “Why?” as if it’s any of their business what I do or do not do with my bodily fluids, all this eventually gets on the nerves of the childfree person and eventually they respond, sometimes with vitriol. Despite being childless and without ever wanting children, I experience very little of this, pretty much never in person. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/291 "2014-06-01T05:24:40Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Just a note to **Whisperer** , **curlie** and **Dread** : > > When you’re admitted to the dementia ward after your families have had enough of listening to your Alzheimic ramblings, wiping the remnants of your vitamized lunch off your chins, and scraping the shit out of your arse creases to prevent infection, you’d better be bloody grateful that SOMEONE had a kid to provide you that care. I’ll be grateful that it isn’t someone even remotely related to you. Please, please promise me that neither you nor any of your spawn will move to my country. I don’t want my dementia-riddled body touched by you or your progeny. > [@keturah](#): > > And last I heard you got laid off. Interesting, given the kick ass economy… And I got paid a year’s worth of severance for that lay off. So suck it, chumps who are still working for a living. > [@](#): > > Your perception is…skewed. To say the least. I’m sorry, are you under the misguided notion that this thread was started to condemn all parents? Because that’s moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/292 "2014-06-01T05:27:35Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Nah, **curlcoat** doesn’t start her own threads as a rule, but she’s got her radar happening to jump into any other thread where kids are mentioned. No kid gets away with having a right to exist in her world. > > Yeah? Cite? Blaming me for **curlcoat** is stupid. And my cite is THIS FUCKING THREAD. Or perhaps you’re confused about where you are at the moment. Are you sure you’re not the one with Alzheimers? ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/293 "2014-06-01T05:28:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Despite being childless and without ever wanting children, I experience very little of this, pretty much never in person. Well, then your experience is very different from mine and I congratulate you on that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/294 "2014-06-01T05:38:01Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that the “urge” to procreate really isn’t that universal. It’s pretty well accepted now that the true urge is actually sexual, and up until you know, 40 years ago, the urge to have sex pretty much led to procreating whether you wanted to or not. As soon as women got their hands on decent birth control, lo and behold the birth rate dropped and a lot of people choose not to have kids at all. So, you’re not all that unusual that you’ve decided you’re not interested enough in kids to have to raise one for 20 years…it’s simply a decision you can make for yourself now, god bless science that it’s possible. Now I’m even more confused - parents have been telling me for years that they _yearn_ with the desire to have kids, that their uteruses spasm when they see cute babies, etc. You’re saying that the overwhelming urge to have a baby that people say they have is just being horny? [Apparently, the biological imperative is "putting biological language to what is psychological.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-carroll/childfree_b_1752906.html) Fascinating! Thank you for the information - I was not aware of this. If the mythical overwhelming urge to have babies is not a biological imperative at all, then I will indeed stop comparing childfree people to gay people. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/295 "2014-06-01T05:51:57Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > Blaming me for **curlcoat** is stupid. And my cite is THIS FUCKING THREAD. Or perhaps you’re confused about where you are at the moment. Are you sure you’re not the one with Alzheimers? Didn’t blame you for **curlcoat** …that’s why I mentioned **curlcoat** and **curlcoat** alone! She’s a whole n’other level of crazy beyond even you and **Whisperer**! You’ve got some serious work to do before you can claim par with her. 😃 And your cite being this thread? Man, how many times has it been pointed out to you that the video was an attempt to be _funny_? Now I get it that YOU don’t find it funny on _any_ level, that’s OK. I never liked Seinfeld, and people used to get up my nose about that for years. Whatevs. Anyway, there’s been a recall on crosses. Apparently the manufacturer has found a flaw in the design that causes the crucifixee to lose humors too rapidly. Please return for a full refund! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/296 "2014-06-01T06:00:25Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that the “urge” to procreate really isn’t that universal. It’s pretty well accepted now that the true urge is actually sexual, and up until you know, 40 years ago, the urge to have sex pretty much led to procreating whether you wanted to or not. As soon as women got their hands on decent birth control, lo and behold the birth rate dropped and a lot of people choose not to have kids at all. So, you’re not all that unusual that you’ve decided you’re not interested enough in kids to have to raise one for 20 years…it’s simply a decision you can make for yourself now, god bless science that it’s possible. Yeah, I don’t buy that. I know a lot of people who really, really want children. They are devastated when they have sex often yet don’t get children. If children wasn’t the imperative, then the sex should be enough to satisfy the urge. But it clearly isn’t. Also, I think birth control inherently reduces said desire, since it makes your body think you are pregnant. It seems to change what women look for in a mate, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t change that, too. The sex imperative may have led people without the procreation imperative to have children in the past, and now only those with the procreation imperative are left. But I’ve seen it happen way too often where someone can have all the sex they want but specifically wants children. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/297 "2014-06-01T11:08:42Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > Well, then your experience is very different from mine and I congratulate you on that. 🙂 Her experience is different not because she’s not surrounded by mean mommies, but because she’s not a goddamned moron. You whine about being the butt of jokes, like the OP, completely unclear on who the butt of the jokes in the OP is: THE MOM. She is making fun of herself. But you’re apparently such a special little snowflake that you can’t bear to be around someone who’s making fun of anyone, because if they are, obviously they’re making fun of you. Certainly I’ll admit the possibility that you’ve spent your life being mocked; you’ve given us strong evidence to support your eminent mockability. But you’re not being mocked because you don’t have kids, trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/298 "2014-06-01T12:53:21Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > Not only do we get things done up here, but our economy has been kicking the Americans’ ass since the US housing/banking crisis sent the world into a recession. Firsit of all, it wasn’t meant as a condemnation of all things Canadian. It was a lighthearted was of saying that it seems like a lot of moms would be out of the workplace for a long time. Second, no. There is rather large [productivity gap](http://ideas.repec.org/a/sls/ipmsls/v9y20041.html) between the average US and Canadian worker that isn’t in your favor. There has been for quite a while. If you’d like to earnestly debate the topic, I’m happy to join you in a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/299 "2014-06-01T13:01:51Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Firsit of all, it wasn’t meant as a condemnation of all things Canadian. It was a lighthearted was of saying that it seems like a lot of moms would be out of the workplace for a long time. Sorry, a beeping oven prevented me from catching these typos within the edit window: First of all, it wasn’t meant as a condemnation of all things Canadian. It was a lighthearted way of saying that it seems like a lot of moms would be out of the workplace for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/300 "2014-06-01T14:31:51Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > So allow me to rephrase then: Being made the butt of jokes, such as that in the OP, being condescended to by self-righteous people who think we are living a life that is “weird,” being asked if you have children in job interviews, saying no, then immediately being asked “Why?” as if it’s any of their business what I do or do not do with my bodily fluids, all this eventually gets on the nerves of the childfree person and eventually they respond, sometimes with vitriol. Again, I never said the decision not to have children is “weird.” What I said was that the attitude that children as a class are a thorn inn the side of society and that we’d be better off without the civic responsibility to help support them (by paying taxes to schools and such) is weird. And not very nice. > [@](#): > > For my part, I will try to be better at recognizing and understanding that there are plenty of people who are born knowing that they will—they must—have kids and that that must be respected. But I will also expect the same in kind. > > Does this help? Fine by me…I wouldn’t dream of doing anything different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487.md?page=16)