# Mom's "Apology" To Friends Without Kids **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487 "2014-05-28T18:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/301 "2014-06-01T14:53:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, I don’t buy that. I know a lot of people who really, really want children. They are devastated when they have sex often yet don’t get children. If children wasn’t the imperative, then the sex should be enough to satisfy the urge. But it clearly isn’t. > > Also, I think birth control inherently reduces said desire, since it makes your body think you are pregnant. It seems to change what women look for in a mate, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t change that, too. > > The sex imperative may have led people without the procreation imperative to have children in the past, and now only those with the procreation imperative are left. But I’ve seen it happen way too often where someone can have all the sex they want but specifically wants children. Some people really want children, yes, and are devastated when they can’t have them. But the dispute is whether there’s a strictly biological urge for it, it doesn’t seem as though that is the case. Some people just really like kids…some people become kindergarten teachers because they love being around kids so much. Many, many other people do not want to be around kids that much, and many don’t want to be around kids hardly at all. And there may be many other factors that go into not wanting kids, based on psychology, upbringing, personality, who knows what else. It’s not what we call a primal urge. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/302 "2014-06-01T14:58:45Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Now I’m even more confused - parents have been telling me for years that they _yearn_ with the desire to have kids, that their uteruses spasm when they see cute babies, etc. You’re saying that the overwhelming urge to have a baby that people say they have is just being horny? [Apparently, the biological imperative is "putting biological language to what is psychological.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-carroll/childfree_b_1752906.html) Fascinating! Thank you for the information - I was not aware of this. > > If the mythical overwhelming urge to have babies is not a biological imperative at all, then I will indeed stop comparing childfree people to gay people. Thank you, that would be be great. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/303 "2014-06-01T16:14:56Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that the “urge” to procreate really isn’t that universal. It’s pretty well accepted now that the true urge is actually sexual, and up until you know, 40 years ago, the urge to have sex pretty much led to procreating whether you wanted to or not. As soon as women got their hands on decent birth control, lo and behold the birth rate dropped and a lot of people choose not to have kids at all. So, you’re not all that unusual that you’ve decided you’re not interested enough in kids to have to raise one for 20 years…it’s simply a decision you can make for yourself now, god bless science that it’s possible. This is a bit oversimplified, in that the Total Fertility Rate has been slowly dropping since 1800, and there are times in history much earlier than 40 years ago when family size contracted quite a bit. Contraception got much easier in the 20th century, to be sure, but for the longest time, the incentives to contracept (urbanization and many more) were not present for the majority, and that made the biggest impact. > [@kambuckta](#): > > Just a note to **Whisperer** , **curlie** and **Dread** : > > When you’re admitted to the dementia ward after your families have had enough of listening to your Alzheimic ramblings, wiping the remnants of your vitamized lunch off your chins, and scraping the shit out of your arse creases to prevent infection, you’d better be bloody grateful that SOMEONE had a kid to provide you that care. I rather resent this one. I have no plans to live that long. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/304 "2014-06-01T16:19:57Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > This is a bit oversimplified, in that the Total Fertility Rate has been slowly dropping since 1800, and there are times in history much earlier than 40 years ago when family size contracted quite a bit. Contraception got much easier in the 20th century, to be sure, but for the longest time, the incentives to contracept (urbanization and many more) were not present for the majority, and that made the biggest impact. Maybe, but the point is that it’s not a strict biological urge for humans to reproduce as much as possible, as you say it’s much more complex than a simple drive. Not wanting children is not some rare biological difference that can be compared to a same-sex preference or gender difference. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/305 "2014-06-01T16:26:09Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Maybe, but the point is that it’s not a strict biological urge for humans to reproduce as much as possible, as you say it’s much more complex than a simple drive. Not wanting children is not some rare biological difference that can be compared to a same-sex preference or gender difference. Sure, but it’s similar. Also, I meant to write “the Total Fertility Rate in the United States …” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/306 "2014-06-01T16:59:15Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, it seems pretty obvious to me that the “urge” to procreate really isn’t that universal. It’s pretty well accepted now that the true urge is actually sexual Five minutes of Googling isn’t helping me find any corroboration or refutation of this claim. It seems remarkable to me, given counterevidence ranging from spayed cats carrying socks around like kittens, to people talking about their ticking biological clock, to the tremendous emphasis in EVERY culture placed on having kids, but maybe there’s something there that I’m missing. If this is pretty well accepted, could you give me an academic source for this claim? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/307 "2014-06-01T17:19:22Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > Well, then your experience is very different from mine and I congratulate you on that. 🙂 I think our experiences have been different because we are different, not because the people around us are. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/308 "2014-06-01T17:49:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Now I’m even more confused - parents have been telling me for years that they _yearn_ with the desire to have kids, that their uteruses spasm when they see cute babies, etc. You’re saying that the overwhelming urge to have a baby that people say they have is just being horny? [Apparently, the biological imperative is "putting biological language to what is psychological.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-carroll/childfree_b_1752906.html) Fascinating! Thank you for the information - I was not aware of this. > > If the mythical overwhelming urge to have babies is not a biological imperative at all, then I will indeed stop comparing childfree people to gay people. Last time I checked, there were no laws banning childfree people from getting married. Childfree teenagers aren’t committing suicide at a much higher rate than non-childfree teenagers. Parents aren’t disowning their children when they tell them they don’t want to have children. They haven’t been arrested, thrown in mental hospitals, tortured, beaten, or told they’re degenerates who are going to Hell for violating God’s law, and should stop “flaunting their lifestyle” in front of people. They aren’t accused of being pedophiles, or committing beastiality. But I suspect you knew that already, and just wanted to shock people. > [@BigT](#): > > Also, I think birth control inherently reduces said desire, since it makes your body think you are pregnant. It seems to change what women look for in a mate, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t change that, too. This is a huge pile of bullshit, since that’s not quite how birth control works. Birth control doesn’t “change your desire to have kids” or “what you look for in a mate”. Where the fuck did you come up with that dumbass idea? ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/309 "2014-06-01T18:14:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > -Snip- > > This is a huge pile of bullshit, since that’s not quite how birth control works. Birth control doesn’t “change your desire to have kids” or “what you look for in a mate”. Where the fuck did you come up with that dumbass idea? Consider the source, **Guin.** He makes that kind of shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/310 "2014-06-01T18:38:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Five minutes of Googling isn’t helping me find any corroboration or refutation of this claim. It seems remarkable to me, given counterevidence ranging from spayed cats carrying socks around like kittens, to people talking about their ticking biological clock, to the tremendous emphasis in EVERY culture placed on having kids, but maybe there’s something there that I’m missing. If this is pretty well accepted, could you give me an academic source for this claim? An academic source? Ha, no…I wouldn’t have the least idea where to find one, but Cat Whisperer linked an interesting article that discusses it. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/311 "2014-06-01T18:47:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Last time I checked, there were no laws banning childfree people from getting married. Childfree teenagers aren’t committing suicide at a much higher rate than non-childfree teenagers. Parents aren’t disowning their children when they tell them they don’t want to have children. They haven’t been arrested, thrown in mental hospitals, tortured, beaten, or told they’re degenerates who are going to Hell for violating God’s law, and should stop “flaunting their lifestyle” in front of people. They aren’t accused of being pedophiles, or committing beastiality. > > But I suspect you knew that already, and just wanted to shock people. But ultimately, **Guin** has the key point here…anyone who thinks that as a child-free person they are subject to the same persecution as gay people has a persecution complex. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/312 "2014-06-01T21:14:18Z")
Of course it was a choice, she could have gone into a care facility, and was briefly. But we CHOSE to bring her home. A ‘highly personal choice’, which affected my availability to be with my friends, who were nothing but supportive. Saying only child rearing requires support and understanding from friends is just nonsense, just admit it already! ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/313 "2014-06-01T23:17:20Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > When you’re admitted to the dementia ward after your families have had enough of listening to your Alzheimic ramblings, wiping the remnants of your vitamized lunch off your chins, and scraping the shit out of your arse creases to prevent infection, you’d better be bloody grateful that SOMEONE had a kid to provide you that care. Since when is having children a guarantee that one won’t wind up in some kind of care facility? One of the ‘little old ladies’ from my hometown became unable to care for herself years ago due to the onset of dementia; she’s going downhill very fast now. Her son put her in a cheap nursing home, went back to the state where he currently resides, and hasn’t been back since. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/314 "2014-06-01T23:29:53Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > An academic source? Ha, no…I wouldn’t have the least idea where to find one, but Cat Whisperer linked an interesting article that discusses it. Her article–and the article it linked to for academic support–were part of my five minutes of Googling. Neither of them came anywhere close to providing clear research to back the claim that it’s the sexual urge, not any sort of reproductive urge, that evolutionarily leads to kids. I tend toward the belief that humans have a buttload of instincts, so maybe that’s a difference, but I see no reason to suspect that the nearly universal cultural imperative to have kids has no biological basis. This is not, of course, to say that there’s any sort of moral imperative to have kids. Plenty of our biological urges range from the gross to the horrifying. But it seems likely that a desire to have kids is going to be a common, not universal, result of our biological makeup. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/315 "2014-06-02T00:05:30Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Since when is having children a guarantee that one won’t wind up in some kind of care facility? One of the ‘little old ladies’ from my hometown became unable to care for herself years ago due to the onset of dementia; she’s going downhill very fast now. Her son put her in a cheap nursing home, went back to the state where he currently resides, and hasn’t been back since. You missed my point entirely, which was that when one does end up in a nursing home (regardless of having kids or not) the person who is going to be your attendant carer is going to be someone _else’s_ kid. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/316 "2014-06-02T00:19:54Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Since when is having children a guarantee that one won’t wind up in some kind of care facility? One of the ‘little old ladies’ from my hometown became unable to care for herself years ago due to the onset of dementia; she’s going downhill very fast now. Her son put her in a cheap nursing home, went back to the state where he currently resides, and hasn’t been back since. I don’t think that was the point of her post. She’s saying that anyone who ends up in a care facility will have a younger generation to thank for that care. ETA: totally ninja’ed. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/317 "2014-06-02T00:29:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Her article–and the article it linked to for academic support–were part of my five minutes of Googling. Neither of them came anywhere close to providing clear research to back the claim that it’s the sexual urge, not any sort of reproductive urge, that evolutionarily leads to kids. > > I tend toward the belief that humans have a buttload of instincts, so maybe that’s a difference, but I see no reason to suspect that the nearly universal cultural imperative to have kids has no biological basis. > > This is not, of course, to say that there’s any sort of moral imperative to have kids. Plenty of our biological urges range from the gross to the horrifying. But it seems likely that a desire to have kids is going to be a common, not universal, result of our biological makeup. I’m not saying it has no biological basis at all…I think it’s fairly instinctive, for instance, to want to care for children. Human instincts, though, aren’t like other animal instincts…we have choices about how we want to live our lives. I don’t really think there’s a specific, primal, biological driver for “wanting to have children,” like there is for, say, the sex drive. I think it’s made up of a variety of biological and sociological forces. I definitely don’t think that not wanting children is so wildly out of the norm that it could be considered a biological anomaly. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/318 "2014-06-02T01:48:35Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’m not saying it has no biological basis at all…I think it’s fairly instinctive, for instance, to want to care for children. Human instincts, though, aren’t like other animal instincts…we have choices about how we want to live our lives. I don’t really think there’s a specific, primal, biological driver for “wanting to have children,” like there is for, say, the sex drive. I think it’s made up of a variety of biological and sociological forces. I definitely don’t think that not wanting children is so wildly out of the norm that it could be considered a biological anomaly. I think I can agree with all of that: wanting to have kids is way more complicated than wanting to have sex. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/319 "2014-06-02T01:56:48Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Some people really want children, yes, and are devastated when they can’t have them. But the dispute is whether there’s a strictly biological urge for it, it doesn’t seem as though that is the case. Some people just really like kids…some people become kindergarten teachers because they love being around kids so much. Many, many other people do not want to be around kids that much, and many don’t want to be around kids hardly at all. And there may be many other factors that go into not wanting kids, based on psychology, upbringing, personality, who knows what else. It’s not what we call a primal urge. Thank you! People seem to think that they have no control over their desire to have children, and that it is so different than a burning desire to have/do anything else. I’m glad to hear that people are not as mindless and slaves to hormones that they claim to be. I seem to be missing posts, dunno why; > [@kambuckta](#): > > Just a note to Whisperer, curlie and Dread: > > When you’re admitted to the dementia ward after your families have had enough of listening to your Alzheimic ramblings, wiping the remnants of your vitamized lunch off your chins, and scraping the shit out of your arse creases to prevent infection, you’d better be bloody grateful that SOMEONE had a kid to provide you that care. Do you honestly think that if people quit having multiple kids, especially those who cannot properly care for them, that we would run out of people to do those sorts of jobs? Seriously? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Five minutes of Googling isn’t helping me find any corroboration or refutation of this claim. It seems remarkable to me, given counterevidence ranging from spayed cats carrying socks around like kittens, to people talking about their ticking biological clock, to the tremendous emphasis in EVERY culture placed on having kids, but maybe there’s something there that I’m missing. If this is pretty well accepted, could you give me an academic source for this claim? I think you hit it yourself - there is tremendous pressure from society to have kids, so it’s something that people just assume they are going to do when they grow up/get married/finish school. There is also pressure on those who cannot figure out birth control, to have and keep every oops baby. Some of us manage to step out of the assumptions and decide we don’t want to have kids, and then society labels us as haters, freaks, insane. After a few decades of that, maybe those labels come true … > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Parents aren’t disowning their children when they tell them they don’t want to have children. Actually, that is one of the major reasons why I no longer have any contact with my parents. They simply would not accept my - ahem - lifestyle choice. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487/320 "2014-06-02T02:42:11Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > You missed my point entirely, which was that when one does end up in a nursing home (regardless of having kids or not) the person who is going to be your attendant carer is going to be someone _else’s_ kid. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I don’t think that was the point of her post. She’s saying that anyone who ends up in a care facility will have a younger generation to thank for that care. > > ETA: totally ninja’ed. …and I’m pointing out that if I can’t live like a man, I will die like one. My mother told me to shoot her so that she doesn’t end up like her mother. I plan to tell her that I won’t shoot her, but I will go to Mexico (or online?) and get the Nembutal, or otherwise make the world’s most powerful smoothy, if it comes to that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moms-apology-to-friends-without-kids/689487.md?page=17)