# Monaco's Royal Family **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339 "2007-03-02T19:31:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MerRob54](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/54ee81/32.png) [@MerRob54](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MerRob54)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/1 "2007-03-02T19:31:03Z")
I just read a Straight Dope posting about the fact that if Monoco fails to produce an heir, the sovereign state reverts to being a full-fledged part of France. Considering that both of Albert’s children are illigitmate (and assuming he has no future children after he weds) 😃 , would Caroline’s children inherit the throne there or if Albert marries one of these two women, would that make the descendant child now “legitimized”? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/2 "2007-03-02T19:35:52Z")
_In 2002, a new treaty between France and Monaco clarifies that if there are no heirs to carry on the dynasty, the principality will remain an independent nation rather than revert to France. Monaco’s military defence, however, is still the responsibility of France._ -from Wiki. (Must have been an old post!) ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/3 "2007-03-02T22:23:09Z")
Quibble - the Grimaldis are not a _royal_ family, they’re a _princely_ family. The Grimaldis are addressed as “Serene Highness” not “Royal Highness.” The only member of the family who is entitled to be addressed as “Royal Highness” is Princess Caroline and she acquired that style through marriage to Prince Ernst August of Hanover, who is a royal highness through his descent in the male line from George III of England and from the kings of the now-defunct kingdom of Hanover. ---
**Author:** ![Eurograff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Eurograff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eurograff)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/4 "2007-03-02T22:32:19Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] (Must have been an old post!) [/QUOTE] It is, [from 1992](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_322.html). It’d be good to update the column by mentioning the new treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/5 "2007-03-03T00:17:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] Quibble - the Grimaldis are not a _royal_ family, they’re a _princely_ family. The Grimaldis are addressed as “Serene Highness” not “Royal Highness.” The only member of the family who is entitled to be addressed as “Royal Highness” is Princess Caroline and she acquired that style through marriage to Prince Ernst August of Hanover, who is a royal highness through his descent in the male line from George III of England and from the kings of the now-defunct kingdom of Hanover. [/QUOTE] In what jurisdiction is Princess Caroline permitted the style “royal highness”? France and Germany are republics, she (presumably) does not live in the UK, and one wouldn’t expect that a resident of Monaco is allowed a “grander” style than that of the sovereign. Or by “permitted” do you mean only by the customs of usage and address? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/6 "2007-03-03T02:47:13Z")
Not in Britain, I would think - her Hanoverian forebears were stripped of their British titles during WWI, when they adhered to the German Empire and fought against the British. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/7 "2007-03-03T13:34:31Z")
**Spectre** and **Piper** , Prince Ernst August is a RH because he is the claimant to the defunct throne of of Hanover (which ceased to be an independent kingdom during the Franco-Prussian War.) According to this [Princess Caroline of Monaco - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline,_Princess_of_Hanover) "his distant cousin Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom issued the following Order-in-Council: ‘My Lords, I do hereby declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco…’ " If the Queen of the UK calls him RH, that’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/8 "2007-03-03T13:52:09Z")
Moved from GQ to CoCC. And fixed the spelling in title while I was at it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/9 "2007-03-03T16:47:21Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Moved from GQ to CoCC. And fixed the spelling in title while I was at it. [/QUOTE] Hey, _anybody_ can do one thing at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/10 "2007-03-03T18:28:00Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] In what jurisdiction is Princess Caroline permitted the style “royal highness”? France and Germany are republics, she (presumably) does not live in the UK, and one wouldn’t expect that a resident of Monaco is allowed a “grander” style than that of the sovereign. Or by “permitted” do you mean only by the customs of usage and address? [/QUOTE] As a courtesy, members of former royal, princely and grand ducal houses in Europe are usually addressed by their style ( e.g., “Serene Highness”) and or title (“Prince”) even in republics such as Germany and France where titles are no longer legally recognized. As a matter of fact, in this day and age the German civil courts hear cases involving “house law,” that is, the dynastic laws of former ruling houses that set down who is entitled to inherit titles and whom a pretender to a defunct throne may marry. A pretender may, of course, marry anybody he pleases, but it has to be an “equal marriage” to a woman of his own rank (_ebenbürtig_) in accordance to the house law of his family if the wife is to have the same rank as the husband and if their son is to succeed to the title. FWIW, even though I know about this stuff, I think titles are bullshit and ought to be abolished. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/11 "2007-03-05T17:09:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] FWIW, even though I know about this stuff, I think titles are bullshit and ought to be abolished. [/QUOTE] Well, they pretty much are, in Germany, but no law can stop the descendants from using the old title as part of their name, or stop the sort of people who are impressed by such things, from being impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/12 "2007-03-05T17:26:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] … the defunct throne of of Hanover (which ceased to be an independent kingdom during the Franco-Prussian War.) … [/QUOTE] Minor quibble: during the _Austro_-Prussian war (of 1866), when Hanover backed the losing side. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/13 "2007-03-13T13:50:56Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] Quibble - the Grimaldis are not a _royal_ family, they’re a _princely_ family. [/QUOTE] Since you say that there is such a distinction in English, I believe you. In Spanish there isn’t, does anybody know whether there is in French or not? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/14 "2007-03-13T14:32:29Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Since you say that there is such a distinction in English, I believe you. In Spanish there isn’t, does anybody know whether there is in French or not? Just curious. [/QUOTE] Every reference that I see to Monaco has always been using the term “principauté”, not “royaume”. Example: official website [http://www.gouv.mc/](http://www.gouv.mc/) (look at top left: Principauté de Monaco) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/15 "2007-03-30T07:43:42Z")
Yes, Monaco is a Principado in Spanish. But the family itself is referred to as “la familia real monegasca”. There isn’t such a thing as a “familia principesca.” ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/16 "2007-03-31T00:06:40Z")
Here’s the language used at [this page](http://www.gouv.mc/webweb/Annuoff.nsf/(ListCh)/B7433860E52C08F9C12567C20033DFD7!OpenDocument) (gouv.mc): PALAIS PRINCIER … LA FAMILLE SOUVERAINE … FAMILLE PRINCIERE … But “famille souveraine” sounds more natural to me than “famille princière”, at least in French. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/17 "2007-03-31T03:12:31Z")
I don’t know. In English, we say they’re not Royal, they’re Serene. I suppose it’s similar in French. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2007, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/18 "2007-04-01T09:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] But “famille souveraine” sounds more natural to me than “famille princière”, at least in French. [/QUOTE] “Famille princière” is often used in france when refering to the Grimaldis. By the way, the reaon why France had a say in the succession was that at the time the former treaties were signed, France feared that a German house could someday claim the principalty. Nowadays, of course, nobody cares anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2007, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/19 "2007-04-02T06:04:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] According to this [Princess Caroline of Monaco - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline,_Princess_of_Hanover) "his distant cousin Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom issued the following Order-in-Council: ‘My Lords, I do hereby declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco…’ " [/QUOTE] So why is Her Maj having to say anything at all by way of consent to a marriage between Caro and Ernie? What purpose did this Order in Council serve? What if she had not consented? I can’t imagine it would have made the slightest difference. Why does England care if some Euro marries some other Euro? ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339/20 "2007-04-02T06:16:44Z")
[QUOTE=Noel Prosequi] So why is Her Maj having to say anything at all by way of consent to a marriage between Caro and Ernie? What purpose did this Order in Council serve? What if she had not consented? I can’t imagine it would have made the slightest difference. Why does England care if some Euro marries some other Euro? [/QUOTE] He’s a descendant of King George II, so I imagine it relates to the requirements of the Royal Marriages Act that such descendants obtain the approval of the monarch before marrying. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monacos-royal-family/394339.md?page=2)