# Moneyball: I KNOW Billy Beane Is a Great GM, But... **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 25, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547 "2011-09-25T12:27:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/42 "2011-09-26T19:02:48Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > The Yankees don’t really have a reputation as being a front office driven by quantitative analysis. I am sure they have analysts, as they have far too much money not to devote a few hundred thousand to it, but they don’t have the same reputation as teams like the Red Sox, Rays, and Rangers. Cashman’s on record as being a “new school” kind of guy (at least these days). IIRC, he’s said that he became more interested in statistical approaches after Epstein’s success with the Red Sox, and has significantly beefed up the Yankees’ analytics department in the past half decade. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/43 "2011-09-26T19:11:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, i think the Orioles are Special School. :D:D:D:D ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/44 "2011-09-26T19:29:22Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Cashman’s on record as being a “new school” kind of guy (at least these days). IIRC, he’s said that he became more interested in statistical approaches after Epstein’s success with the Red Sox, and has significantly beefed up the Yankees’ analytics department in the past half decade. Cashman’s also been on the high-OBP guys end of the “new school” wagon basically forever - the Yankees’ top hitters from the beginning of his tenure pretty much all (exception: Tino Martinez) had their skills tilted towards OBP (Paul O’Neill, Bernie Williams, Jeter, Posada; all of them pretty likely to take a walk). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/45 "2011-09-26T20:02:26Z")
The Tigers are old school? I know Leland is a neaderthol but the team does not act that way. The picked up M. Cabrera who has fabulous numbers. His OBP Is best in the league. SLG,-2nd, OPS-2nd bb-2nd. He is a very good stats choice. They dumped Granderson because as a leadoff hitter, he struck out too much and his OBP was abysmal . Inge got in trouble for the same things. Too many Ks and few walks and hits. But they appear to be well aware of OBP and other stats. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/46 "2011-09-26T20:19:44Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > Royals - old school Nope. While preschool may be appropriate they’ve been extremely new school as of late. They’ve stockpiled talent like no other team in baseball right now, have the most envious farm system in the MLB, and have been (more or less) making moves according to a pretty strategic plan (there’s been some hiccups, but none of them have been expensive). Though I can certainly see how their ineptitude would lead to a perception of old school patheticness. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/47 "2011-09-26T20:24:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **RickJay** , he says he accepted, then turned it down. That’s easier to explain publicly than being rejected, huh? Oddly, the Red Sox never announced it, nor did Beane ever state his reasons for changing his mind so suddenly about something he had wanted so badly. Had to weigh in on this once more, because i can’t recall the last time i saw so much misinformation in a single three-sentence paragraph. I also wanted to make clear that Boston’s job offer to Beane was not some sort of clubhouse secret that Seth Mnookin managed to dig up thanks to his insider status. It was covered in considerable detail in the media, including in the Boston press. Let’s take your points one by one. > [@](#): > > **RickJay** , he says he accepted, then turned it down. This is true; Beane did say that. > [@](#): > > That’s easier to explain publicly than being rejected, huh? Perhaps, but if you were never rejected, then there would be nothing to explain, would there? > [@](#): > > Oddly, the Red Sox never announced it Here’s where you really start running off the rails. There are multiple examples in the press, from November 2002, of Red Sox officials making very clear that they had not only offered the job to Beane, but that, as far as they were concerned, he had accepted and there was a deal in place. There are even more stories in which it is made quite clear that the Red Sox wanted Beane, and actively courted him. Here’s just a selection of what is available through a Lexis/Nexis and ProQuest search. > [@](#): > > Beane, who assembled playoff teams for the past three seasons despite one of the lowest payrolls in the major leagues, agreed to terms of a contract with the Red Sox, a baseball source said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity. > > \ > > Red Sox chief executive officer Larry Lucchino would not confirm an agreement with the 40-year-old Beane, saying Boston has been negotiating with Beane since receiving permission to speak to him last week. A’s spokesman Jim Young also would not confirm an agreement between Beane and the Red Sox. > > “We’ve been active in detailed negotiations this weekend,” Lucchino said. “But when we have something to announce, we will announce it. There’s nothing to announce at this point.” > > Beane was identified as one of the top candidates for the job ever since Dan Duquette was fired in spring training and replaced by interim GM Mike Port. Once the season was over and Boston’s search for a permanent replacement began, the team asked to speak to Beane but the A’s never formally responded to the request. > > **The Associated Press State & Local Wire, November 10, 2002, Sunday, BC cycle** > [@](#): > > The parties flew to Florida to meet at Henry’s house. They had dinner on Thursday and stayed up into the night discussing their baseball philosophies. Beane left the next day, but on Saturday he accepted an offer estimated at $13 million over five years. > > “There were a lot of good feelings and positive vibrations,” Lucchino said. “The words were spoken: OK, we have a deal.” > > \ > > “We are disappointed, but not devastated,” Lucchino said. “We think Billy Beane would have been an outstanding GM here and we believe that he would have adjusted to the East Coast ways and culture and lifestyle. But we respect the judgment that he made for the reasons that he made it.” > > **The Associated Press State & Local Wire, November 11, 2002, Monday, BC cycle** > [@](#): > > “He’s withdrawn from the agreement we had, for personal and family considerations,” Larry Lucchino, the Red Sox chief executive, said by telephone from Boston. “He stressed to us that he was a West Coast guy, but we were hopeful and had reason to be hopeful that he had resolved that issue. But apparently upon reflection during the course of deliberations on compensation, he and his family decided that the West Coast roots and history were of paramount importance.” > > Lucchino added: “Make no mistake. We believed that Billy was going to be our next general manager. But we respect him and appreciate Oakland’s desire to keep him.” > > **The New York Times, November 11, 2002 Monday Late Edition - Final** > [@](#): > > The development rocked the Sox’ search for a permanent GM, robbing team officials of their last hope of landing their top candidate and leaving them with a list of fallback contenders more than six weeks into the process. > > “We did, in fact, have a deal with him,” said a Sox official close to the talks, “but personal matters ended up overwhelming the deal.” > > Sox principal John W. Henry and CEO Larry Lucchino, negotiating with Beane by phone from Henry’s base in Boca Raton, Fla., completed a pact that included generous provisions for Beane to travel regularly to visit his daughter, Casey, in Newport Beach, Calif. > > **Boston Globe [Boston, Mass] 11 Nov 2002.** > [@](#): > > It was done. Red Sox owner John Henry and CEO Larry Lucchino had dinner with Oakland general manager Billy Beane at Henry’s home in Boca Raton, Fla., Thursday night. Saturday night, Beane agreed to become general manager of the Red Sox for approximately $2.5 million per year for the next five years. > > The Sox got their man. Finally. Boston’s interminable GM Star Search was over. > > But last night, the 40-year-old Beane changed his mind, citing family considerations. And now it’s back to the drawing board for Lucchino - who looks more and more like a guy who can’t get a date for the big dance. > > “We had a chance to get the prom queen,” Lucchino said late last night. “And then after saying `yes,' she said `no.’ He said `no.’ Apparently it was not a good fit. Unfortunately, Boston is on the East Coast. We went out and got our man, gave him a generous contract, but he had personal issues that caused him to change his mind.” > > **Boston Globe [Boston, Mass] 11 Nov 2002.** I mean, i guess it’s possible that the Red Sox didn’t put an official announcement on their team website that Billy Beane had been offered the position, but it seems to me that if you have multiple examples of the club’s Chief Executive Officer saying that they had offered him the job, and that he had decided not to take it, then that constitutes an announcement by the Red Sox in every sense that matters. And, finally, onto **Elvis** ’s last claim: > [@](#): > > nor did Beane ever state his reasons for changing his mind so suddenly about something he had wanted so badly. Beane’s reasons were discussed in considerable detail in many of those stories. > [@](#): > > DePodesta, a close friend of Beane’s who would have replaced him as the Oakland general manager, said Beane did not want to make his decision based on money. As another person who knows Beane well said, the Red Sox had to offer him a lot of money to get him to leave the West Coast. > > “He’s always told me he’s made one decision in his life that he regrets,” DePodesta said. “It’s the decision he made to sign to play baseball instead of going to Stanford. He wants to make sure whatever he does, it’s for the right reasons.” > > Beane’s 14-year-old daughter, who lives in Newport Beach, Calif., was another element in Beane’s thinking. Beane sees his daughter frequently, a friend said, either flying to Southern California or having her fly to Oakland almost every other weekend. > > Beane’s wife, Tara, is a Northern Californian and was reluctant to go east, said a person familiar with Beane’s family circumstances. > > **The New York Times, November 11, 2002 Monday, Late Edition - Final** > [@](#): > > But the deal hit a snag when Beane developed reservations, according to sources who spoke with him. He apparently grew increasingly remorseful about the prospect of putting so much distance between himself and his 12-year-old daughter, the Oakland team he built, and the staff he assembled. > > **Boston Globe [Boston, Mass] 11 Nov 2002.** > [@](#): > > Was Lucchino angry about the late-night flip? > > “I think it’s very hard to be critical when a person’s reconsideration is based on personal, psychological, and family considerations,” said the Sox CEO. “So we will not be.” > > \ > > “Ed Williams [the late attorney was Lucchino’s mentor] always said that life is a motion picture, not a still photo,” said Lucchino. “Things change. Apparently Billy felt that the move from the West Coast to the East Coast was more than his family could accept. We have to respect that. But we are disappointed.” > > **Boston Globe [Boston, Mass] 11 Nov 2002** > [@](#): > > [Beane] said he ultimately decided that he could not attack the Sox job with his trademark passion without undermining his personal life. He suggested he had taken for granted his ability to fly from Oakland to Newport Beach in an hour to see his daughter. > > “You sort of rationalize it in your mind because [the Sox] were incredibly flexible,” he said. “But they deserve everything, and so do my daughter and wife in some respects. When you really sit down and think about the reality of it, it just didn’t seem like there was any way it could work.” > > **Boston Globe [Boston, Mass] 12 Nov 2002.** The idea that the Red Sox rejected Beane’s philosophy is undermined not only by all the evidence presented above, but also by the decision they eventually made in their GM search. Theo Epstein was someone who was friends with Beane, who had worked with Beane, and who had a similar approach to building a team. And when Beane decided not to go to Boston, he actually recommended that Epstein be given the job. It’s pretty surprising, **Elvis** , that as a committed Boston fan who lives in New England, you apparently weren’t aware of any of this. And that you were so unaware that you actually made claims that are in direct contradiction of what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/48 "2011-09-26T20:34:21Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, i think the Orioles are Special School. 14 straight seasons under .500, baby! ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/49 "2011-09-26T20:51:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > 14 straight seasons under .500, baby! [Amateurs](http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=PIT). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/50 "2011-09-26T21:02:39Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Had to weigh in on this once more, because i can’t recall the last time i saw so much misinformation in a single three-sentence paragraph. I also wanted to make clear that Boston’s job offer to Beane was not some sort of clubhouse secret that Seth Mnookin managed to dig up thanks to his insider status. It was covered in considerable detail in the media, including in the Boston press. > > Let’s take your points one by one. > > This is true; Beane did say that. > > Perhaps, but if you were never rejected, then there would be nothing to explain, would there? > Here’s where you really start running off the rails. > > There are multiple examples in the press, from November 2002, of Red Sox officials making very clear that they had not only offered the job to Beane, but that, as far as they were concerned, he had accepted and there was a deal in place. There are even more stories in which it is made quite clear that the Red Sox wanted Beane, and actively courted him. Here’s just a selection of what is available through a Lexis/Nexis and ProQuest search. > > I mean, i guess it’s possible that the Red Sox didn’t put an official announcement on their team website that Billy Beane had been offered the position, but it seems to me that if you have multiple examples of the club’s Chief Executive Officer saying that they had offered him the job, and that he had decided not to take it, then that constitutes an announcement by the Red Sox in every sense that matters. > > And, finally, onto **Elvis** ’s last claim: > Beane’s reasons were discussed in considerable detail in many of those stories. > > The idea that the Red Sox rejected Beane’s philosophy is undermined not only by all the evidence presented above, but also by the decision they eventually made in their GM search. Theo Epstein was someone who was friends with Beane, who had worked with Beane, and who had a similar approach to building a team. And when Beane decided not to go to Boston, he actually recommended that Epstein be given the job. > > It’s pretty surprising, **Elvis** , that as a committed Boston fan who lives in New England, you apparently weren’t aware of any of this. And that you were so unaware that you actually made claims that are in direct contradiction of what actually happened. And Bill James was already in the offices of the Red Sox. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/51 "2011-09-26T22:02:00Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Had to weigh in on this once more, because i can’t recall the last time i saw so much misinformation in a single three-sentence paragraph. I also wanted to make clear that Boston’s job offer to Beane was not some sort of clubhouse secret that Seth Mnookin managed to dig up thanks to his insider status. It was covered in considerable detail in the media, including in the Boston press. I’m glad you corrected this ridiculous misinformation, as it saved me the trouble. It wouldn’t have been much trouble, though. It took me one Google search to find about twenty direct cites from 2002-2003, most of them in the Boston press, proving Beane was offered the Red Sox job. It’s off topic, but it’s important to get the facts straight. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/52 "2011-09-26T23:23:18Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Nope. While preschool may be appropriate they’ve been extremely new school as of late. They’ve stockpiled talent like no other team in baseball right now, have the most envious farm system in the MLB, and have been (more or less) making moves according to a pretty strategic plan (there’s been some hiccups, but none of them have been expensive). > > Though I can certainly see how their ineptitude would lead to a perception of old school patheticness. When asked what Sabermetric stats he likes, Royals GM Dayton Moore responded, “Runs Scored.” Unless he was trolling, he’s not new school. I’m not saying that old school teams can’t rebuild properly, but the Royals are definitely **not** analytically-driven. They are scout-based and Moore makes a lot of moves that fly in the face of sabermetrics (such as signing Jeff Francouer, who incidentally ended up having a pretty good season). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/53 "2011-09-26T23:35:33Z")
Believe all the cover stories you want - you will, anyway, and even continue to call it “getting the facts straight”. ;0 You also know how the fraternity covers for each other, and that the fraternity include the press. Call those cover stories “proof” if it comforts you. The fact remains that he left without the job he wanted so desperately. To call the alleged offer a “fact”, one must believe he never knew before that day that moving to Boston would mean leaving California and disrupting his family, and that he suddenly realized it the day he got here. Come on now. :rolleyes: Or maybe it dawned on him that he really would be expected to produce \*winning \*teams in a big market, and that he knew he wasn’t up to it, that he knew his poor judgment would be mercilessly exposed, that he’d be ridiculed for it, and that perhaps it was better to splash around the kiddie pool and feel loved instead. Note please that he’s never even considered another big-market, _winning_-oriented organization since. [Here’s something much more recent](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/for-billy-beane-winning-isnt-everything.html) confirming it: > [@](#): > > He has no regrets, he said, about turning down the Red Sox job, even though it’s easy to think, in hindsight, that by combining his insights with that team’s resources, he might have been the one to make history there. “I have a wife and kids and parents who all live out here,” he said. “If it was strictly driven by the desire to just win games, and if that was the end-all for me, then yes. But this is the type of environment I like and enjoy.” In pro sports, “Winning isn’t important to me” is another way of saying “I’m a loser”. And, to point out the painfully obvious once again, that’s what his record shows he is. Now: _Damn_, fellas … :rolleyes: This shit were discussing isn’t religion, it’s just number-crunching. No need to go after the heretics with torches and pitchforks, ya know. Maybe somebody will try to explain how so few of Beane’s hot draft picks ever even made the majors. > [@tanbarkie](#): > > Epstein’s success with the Red Sox Bluntly, it’s based on throwing money at problems, not numbers or even judgment. Theo’s fascination with stats combined with his poor baseball judgment is why we have J.D. Drew, Daisuke Matsuzaka, and John Lackey sucking up more dollars than the entire Rays roster. At least Julio Lugo’s contract has finally expired. And Bill James’ contribution (besides those absurd “temperature gauges” on NESN broadcasts)? The first thing he did was insist, based on some numbers he came up with, that the Sox pick up Bruce Chen. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/54 "2011-09-26T23:42:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Believe all the cover stories you want - you will, anyway, and even continue to call it “getting the facts straight”. ;0 You also know how the fraternity covers for each other, and that the fraternity include the press. Let me get this straight; is it your position that Beane was NOT offered the job, and that everyone involved, including John Henry, the owner of the Rd Sox, and Larry Lucchino, the team’s CEO, are for some reason lying about it? Why would Henry and Lucchino lie about this? What evidence do you have that all these people are lying? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/55 "2011-09-27T19:01:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Let me get this straight; is it your position that Beane was NOT offered the job, and that everyone involved, including John Henry, the owner of the Rd Sox, and Larry Lucchino, the team’s CEO, are for some reason lying about it? > > Why would Henry and Lucchino lie about this? What evidence do you have that all these people are lying? It’s hilarious, isn’t it? This is a guy who, in this same thread, actually had the balls to invoke Occam’s Razor. And yet now, faced with a mountain of evidence, from multiple sources, directly quoting the specific individuals who own and run the Boston Red Sox and the Oakland Athletics, his conclusion is that it’s all a big cover-up, and that every person connected with this story in the Red Sox and the Athletics organizations, as well as in the media, is lying about it. We might not be discussing religion here, **Elvis** , but your post demonstrates a level of blind faith and unsupported speculation that looks pretty similar to that of the most marginal cult. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/56 "2011-09-27T22:37:50Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > When asked what Sabermetric stats he likes, Royals GM Dayton Moore responded, “Runs Scored.” Unless he was trolling, he’s not new school. Damn. As a Royals fan from afar who has far little time to pay attention to GM quotes, this is the worst news I’ve heard all month. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/57 "2011-09-27T22:39:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > We might not be discussing religion here, **Elvis** , but your post demonstrates a level of blind faith and unsupported speculation that looks pretty similar to that of the most marginal cult. I wish someone would write me a Greasemonkey script that would put a .midi file of “Jakkity Sax” next to every ElvisL1ves post in the Game Room. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/58 "2011-09-29T23:15:50Z")
Looks like **Elvis** is seeking to improve his [RAFT](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9704657#post9704657) percentage. ---
**Author:** ![Donny\_Kerabatsos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Donny\_Kerabatsos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donny_Kerabatsos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/59 "2011-10-19T16:37:31Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Even though I’m not a serious, hardcore sabremetrician, I do respect and admire the great job Billy Beane did for many years. I have to say that up front because, inevitably, threads like this devolve into insult fests, with one side insisting that “geeks” like Billy Beane and Bill James have completely drained the fun from baseball, and the other side screaming that anyone who doesn’t genuflect before Beane is a troglodyte. > > So, before anything else, I acknowledge that Beane is a smart guy who, on the whole, has done a great job with limited resources. > > I’ll also say that “Moneyball” was a pretty good (not great- it’s too long, for one thing) movie- even people who don’t normally care about baseball at all (like my wife) are likely to enjoy it. > > That said, check out this clip from the new movie “Moneyball.” > > [http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2011/9/9/2415327/this-is-a-clip-from-moneyball-they-are-talking-about-carlos-pena-right](http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2011/9/9/2415327/this-is-a-clip-from-moneyball-they-are-talking-about-carlos-pena-right) > > Way to go, Billy! You’re not gonna let some old-school manager tell you who’s good and who’s not. Your numbers tell you Scott Hatteberg is The Man, and you’re not gonna let some fat, old-school ex-jock play somebody else based on his gut. > > As a movie scene, it’s great. But there’s one problem, and it’s a problem the movie never, EVER acknowledges. > > “Pena” was Carlos Pena. And the record shows clearly that Carlos Pena has been a much, much better player than Hatteberg! > > In other words, the old fart manager who supposedly didn’t appreciate the genius of Billy Beane was RIGHT, and the supposed cutting edge genius was wrong. > > Now, I’m NOT pointing this out in order to gloat. Yes, Beane screwed up big time in this case, but that’s forgivable. Even geniuses make mistakes, and they’re entitled to. > > I just have to wonder… there are all kinds of GOOD moves Beane has made that the film could have used to show how smart he was. Why on Earth would they use one of Beane’s biggest BLUNDERS in a scene that’s supposed to show how much smarter he was than Art Howe? Indeed. My very first post I was deemed, Nitpick.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Donny\_Kerabatsos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Donny\_Kerabatsos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donny_Kerabatsos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/60 "2011-10-19T16:41:29Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Even though I’m not a serious, hardcore sabremetrician, I do respect and admire the great job Billy Beane did for many years. I have to say that up front because, inevitably, threads like this devolve into insult fests, with one side insisting that “geeks” like Billy Beane and Bill James have completely drained the fun from baseball, and the other side screaming that anyone who doesn’t genuflect before Beane is a troglodyte. > > So, before anything else, I acknowledge that Beane is a smart guy who, on the whole, has done a great job with limited resources. > > I’ll also say that “Moneyball” was a pretty good (not great- it’s too long, for one thing) movie- even people who don’t normally care about baseball at all (like my wife) are likely to enjoy it. > > That said, check out this clip from the new movie “Moneyball.” > > [http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2011/9/9/2415327/this-is-a-clip-from-moneyball-they-are-talking-about-carlos-pena-right](http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2011/9/9/2415327/this-is-a-clip-from-moneyball-they-are-talking-about-carlos-pena-right) > > Way to go, Billy! You’re not gonna let some old-school manager tell you who’s good and who’s not. Your numbers tell you Scott Hatteberg is The Man, and you’re not gonna let some fat, old-school ex-jock play somebody else based on his gut. > > As a movie scene, it’s great. But there’s one problem, and it’s a problem the movie never, EVER acknowledges. > > “Pena” was Carlos Pena. And the record shows clearly that Carlos Pena has been a much, much better player than Hatteberg! > > In other words, the old fart manager who supposedly didn’t appreciate the genius of Billy Beane was RIGHT, and the supposed cutting edge genius was wrong. > > Now, I’m NOT pointing this out in order to gloat. Yes, Beane screwed up big time in this case, but that’s forgivable. Even geniuses make mistakes, and they’re entitled to. > > I just have to wonder… there are all kinds of GOOD moves Beane has made that the film could have used to show how smart he was. Why on Earth would they use one of Beane’s biggest BLUNDERS in a scene that’s supposed to show how much smarter he was than Art Howe? No. You missed the WHOLE point. Point is, it didn’t matter who was better but who they could afford. Pena was a great prospect but the money to keep him was going to be money they needed to put at another position(s). Hatteberg was an affordable player whose numbers were decent. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547/61 "2011-10-19T17:58:14Z")
> [@Donny\_Kerabatsos](#): > > No. You missed the WHOLE point. Point is, it didn’t matter who was better but who they could afford. Pena was a great prospect but the money to keep him was going to be money they needed to put at another position(s). Hatteberg was an affordable player whose numbers were decent. Not quite correct. Pena was on the team and Beane told the manager not to play him because of poor OBP. The money mattered in the future, but not while he was on the team already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moneyball-i-know-billy-beane-is-a-great-gm-but/597547.md?page=4)