# Monica Lewinski, slut or victim ? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 6, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022 "2020-03-06T17:40:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/181 "2020-03-12T20:41:22Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > She not responsible for risking Bill’s marriage (that’s all on Bill). She is responsible for risking her own career. Okay, you are absolutely right. I take that back. I should have said Hillary’s marriage. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/182 "2020-03-13T00:46:19Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Okay, you are absolutely right. I take that back. I should have said Hillary’s marriage. That’s all on Bill. He was a hound dog from years and years before he met Monica. He was chasing so many women that one more young woman wasn’t going to make a difference. I’m having a hard time seeing why this isn’t just yet another case of placing the blame on the woman rather than the man. Yes, he clearly signaled her interest but it’s up to him to say no, something apparently he was never capable of doing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/183 "2020-03-13T03:14:40Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > That’s all on Bill. He was a hound dog from years and years before he met Monica. He was chasing so many women that one more young woman wasn’t going to make a difference. > > I’m having a hard time seeing why this isn’t just yet another case of placing the blame on the woman rather than the man. Yes, he clearly signaled her interest but it’s up to him to say no, something apparently he was never capable of doing. I suspect the women were chasing him. He was one good looking and powerful dude with charming manners who had the ability to make some women think that he had more than a casual interest in them. Hence the inevitable anger and disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/184 "2020-03-13T03:50:07Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I suspect the women were chasing him. He was one good looking and powerful dude with charming manners who had the ability to make some women think that he had more than a casual interest in them. Hence the inevitable anger and disappointment. So basically, if it wasn’t Monica, it would’ve been someone else. All the more reason to that Bill is the one primarily at fault. You’re just using Monica as a scapegoat. He’s a grown man, let him sac up and take responsiblity for his actions instead of blaming it on the woman. Hillary doesn’t have to like Monica, or forgive her. That’s only human nature – for HER. He slept with HER husband. But Bill was the one who primarily let her down. Monica just happened to be the one who he did it with – but it could have been anyone. He’s the one who was married to her. He’s the one who made a vow. But at the end of all this…it’s none of your goddamned business. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/185 "2020-03-13T05:22:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So basically, if it wasn’t Monica, it would’ve been someone else. All the more reason to that Bill is the one primarily at fault. You’re just using Monica as a scapegoat. He’s a grown man, let him sac up and take responsiblity for his actions instead of blaming it on the woman. > > Hillary doesn’t have to like Monica, or forgive her. That’s only human nature – for HER. He slept with HER husband. But Bill was the one who primarily let her down. Monica just happened to be the one who he did it with – but it could have been anyone. He’s the one who was married to her. He’s the one who made a vow. > > But at the end of all this…it’s none of your goddamned business. If you are correct, its none of your business either.Perhaps you stay out of this thread ? ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/186 "2020-03-13T14:39:42Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > If Monica is **not** entirely blameless of the situation , then what do you say she is to be blamed for given she _bears_ zero responsibility for risking Bill’s marriage ? Because someone can be partially blameless, but not entirely so? She’s guilty of making a bad decision that (IMO) any idiot could have seen as a bad idea. While Bill is guilty of everything and anything that happened between he and Hillary, as he was the one breaking a promise he made to her, and for looking bad in the eyes of the American people. He’s the one that had a duty not to accept any come-ons Monica supplied. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/187 "2020-03-13T15:51:27Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > He was one good looking and powerful dude with charming manners who had the ability to make some women think that he had more than a casual interest in them. Hence the inevitable anger and disappointment. He also had the ability to make women know that he did not have more than a casual interest in them. Therefore the “anger and disappointment” that would have been caused by his lying about it wouldn’t be “inevitable”. They’d be the result of his lying about the extent of his interest. That’s behavior which is not made less reprehensible if the person doing the lying is good looking, powerful, and charming: if anything, it’s more reprehensible, because a person with such good social skills damn well knows how to avoid it. Not that he necessarily lied to Lewinsky, who may have been perfectly willing to engage in a brief liason with someone who she knew was just horny. But there was nothing “inevitable” about any of this if Clinton had just kept his pants zipped. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/188 "2020-03-13T19:26:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know what your point is – you’re not saying anything that conflicts with my points. There are plenty of threads to shit on Hillary Clinton – why does this need to be another one? Society treated Monica Lewinsky like garbage. So did many individuals and organizations within our society. The actions of Hillary Clinton nor some feminists do not exculpate the treatment of Lewinsky by society. Our society is profoundly misogynistic, and this is just another example, regardless of the actions of various individuals and organizations. It is pretty silly to insist that we avoid discussion of Hillary’s role in the situation when the thread is about how society slutshamed Monica Lewinsky. Hillary owns a large piece of that shit pie. Our society is PROFOUNDLY misogynistic? How are we PROFOUNDLY misogynistic? How is criticizing a woman who had an affair with a married man PROFOUNDLY misogynistic? On the global scale, America is pretty progressive. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/189 "2020-03-13T19:28:03Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I’m fully in favor of nobody calling Lewinsky a slut, except Hillary Clinton. She gets a pass for whatever she may have said about the Bill and Monica. If she said _that woman_ and _narcissistic nincompoop_ or whatever, that’s cool too. Why the exception for Hillary Clinton? Why is she allowed to blame her husband’s philandering on the recent college graduate just so she can preserve her doomed political career? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/190 "2020-03-13T19:32:37Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > If some 22 year old man exposed his erection to my wife in her office , and she laughed, let me tell you I wouldn’t let that be the end of it. And if my wife actually succumbed to his advances my family life as I know it, that I sacrificed so much for would be over. It would be even worse if the whole world found out about it. Calling him a prick or any other pejorative would be the least reaction that I would respond with. > > I don’t care whether you are a man or a woman. If you try to be a home wrecker for your own selfish needs, being called a slut or a prick doesn’t begin to describe your character. > > [sarcasm]Poor Monica. She should be given a pass. She’s only 22 years old and after all she is a woman and fragile.[/sarcasm] Did your wife have a history of having affairs with young men that worked for her? Because if not then it’s not the same thing at all. Noone says she’s fragile but she is young. Fresh out of college. And he was the 50 yer old president of the United States of America. The standards are not the same for the two. BTW, in what way did Monica Lewinsky do the equivalent of showing Bill Clinton her erection? Did she strike a capt morgan’s pose and spread her lips in front of Bill? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/191 "2020-03-13T19:34:24Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Our resident redpillers are strong with their virtue signalling in this thread. > > So brave! And ANOTHER content free post by the usual suspect. I don’t think I’ve seen you make a decent argument about anything… ever. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/192 "2020-03-13T20:16:57Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > If you are correct, its none of your business either.Perhaps you stay out of this thread ? I am amazed on a regular basis that you’re able to tie your shoes without accidentally strangling yourself. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/193 "2020-03-13T20:54:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is pretty silly to insist that we avoid discussion of Hillary’s role in the situation when the thread is about how society slutshamed Monica Lewinsky. Hillary owns a large piece of that shit pie. She owns a teeny-tiny piece. Society treated Lewisnky like shit for many years. At most, Hillary said something demeaning about her a handful of times. > [@](#): > > Our society is PROFOUNDLY misogynistic? How are we PROFOUNDLY misogynistic? How is criticizing a woman who had an affair with a married man PROFOUNDLY misogynistic? Absolutely. It was far more than just criticizing – it was constant dehumanizing and demeaning media about her. And we’re profoundly misogynistic in a million different ways – chiefly that millions of women have been abused, assaulted, or raped, with no justice or consequences for most of their abusers. And while some limited progress has been made, this remains true, and most abusers get away with their abuse. > [@](#): > > On the global scale, America is pretty progressive. And maybe Don Jr. is the smartest of the Trump kids. This is about equally as impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/194 "2020-03-13T20:58:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@BlankSlate](#): > > > > I’m fully in favor of nobody calling Lewinsky a slut, except Hillary Clinton. She gets a pass for whatever she may have said about the Bill and Monica. If she said _that woman_ and _narcissistic nincompoop_ or whatever, that’s cool too. > > Why the exception for Hillary Clinton? > > Why is she allowed to blame her husband’s philandering on the recent college graduate just so she can preserve her doomed political career? It seems obvious to me that one whose spouse cheated on them would be angry with their spouse _and_ the person with whom they cheated, whether or not a political career is involved. So _if_ Hillary Clinton called Monica Lewinsky a slut either privately or publicly, it would be understandable. (Though _as I recall_, Hillary publicly said very little.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/195 "2020-03-13T22:39:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I am amazed on a regular basis that you’re able to tie your shoes without accidentally strangling yourself. It is only amazing if you can’t figure it out . ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/196 "2020-03-13T22:59:14Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > It is only amazing if you can’t figure it out . Penny loafers! C’mon Miller. Use your head. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/197 "2020-03-14T12:23:39Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > Bill Clinton at least, engaged in one of the most potentially praiseworthy reasons to commit perjury. He lied to protect the reputation of a lady. Pity the lady wasn’t similarly inclined. This is from earlier in the thread, but it’s still bullshit. Bill lied to protect one and only one person: himself. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > BTW, in what way did Monica Lewinsky do the equivalent of showing Bill Clinton her erection? Did she strike a capt morgan’s pose and spread her lips in front of Bill? Apparently, she flashed her thong at Bill. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > He also had the ability to make women know that he did not have more than a casual interest in them. Therefore the “anger and disappointment” that would have been caused by his lying about it wouldn’t be “inevitable”. They’d be the result of his lying about the extent of his interest. That’s behavior which is not made less reprehensible if the person doing the lying is good looking, powerful, and charming: if anything, it’s more reprehensible, because a person with such good social skills damn well knows how to avoid it. > > Not that he necessarily lied to Lewinsky, who may have been perfectly willing to engage in a brief liason with someone who she knew was just horny. But there was nothing “inevitable” about any of this if Clinton had just kept his pants zipped. I knew a serious player and he pissed me off too much. He was really good looking and charming and would say anything to get his dick wet. He was married, had kids but would chase anything that moved. He was damn good at sensing what the person wanted to hear and telling them that. I got tired of watching him and stopped hanging out with him. Dollars to donuts, Bill was a similar kind of asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/198 "2020-03-14T13:08:13Z")
The “power imbalance” is being overstated here. She was a young intern… from an Old Money family, whose father was a fairly major contributor. She was the Jewish equivalent of a Kardashian, or a third-generation Kennedy, the generation that fucked _au pairs_ and skied into trees. Among the interns, I suspect she had kind of an exalted status even before the affair began. I lived in DC while this was playing out. While I didn’t know her personally, I did see her out and about a few times on K Street and in Adams-Morgan. She was leaned on heavily to perjure herself and claim that Clinton raped or coerced her, and she refused to play ball. I think she made a mistake and then showed commendable character handling the consequences. Not a slut, and if she was anybody’s victim, she was Ken Starr’s. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/199 "2020-03-14T15:36:37Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > The “power imbalance” is being overstated here. She was a young intern… from an Old Money family, whose father was a fairly major contributor. She was the Jewish equivalent of a Kardashian, or a third-generation Kennedy, the generation that fucked _au pairs_ and skied into trees. Among the interns, I suspect she had kind of an exalted status even before the affair began. > > I lived in DC while this was playing out. While I didn’t know her personally, I did see her out and about a few times on K Street and in Adams-Morgan. She was leaned on heavily to perjure herself and claim that Clinton raped or coerced her, and she refused to play ball. I think she made a mistake and then showed commendable character handling the consequences. Not a slut, and if she was anybody’s victim, she was Ken Starr’s. I’ll go with that statement, not a slut and not a victim of Bill’s. This concludes my participation in this thread ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022/200 "2020-03-14T15:52:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …Fresh out of college. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …on the recent college graduate.? Would you ever make such a dumb argument about a man? It’s pretty simple: don’t fuck married people. If you do, you are just as shitty as the married person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monica-lewinski-slut-or-victim/849022.md?page=11)