# Monsanto- Is it really Teh Evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500 "2012-10-22T08:37:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/1 "2012-10-22T08:37:28Z")
Listening to Coast to Coast AM, opening my Facebook, checking the occasional Conspiracy Buff site- either Left or Right, I am hearing & seeing stuff about Monsanto corrupting the food supply, poisoning humanity, killing off competitor crops via terminator seeds (if I understand correctly), provoking farmer suicides in India, and generally controlling both main U.S. parties & various governments worldwide. So what’s the Straight Dope? Feeder of the World, The Great Beast, or something in-between? ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/2 "2012-10-22T09:06:37Z")
I don’t know about evil, but Monsanto has a hell of a virtual monopoly going and it isn’t shy about flexing its muscle to make sure it stays that way. Monsanto’s been targeted by anti-trust regulators, but they are largely toothless these days, at least as compared to days gone by. It’s not hard to imagine a conspiracy theory about a massive company that uses/abuses its power liberally in literally the most important industry to human survival. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/3 "2012-10-22T10:11:55Z")
I don’t think Monsanto is evil per se but amoral in the sense that the business will pursue any successful strategies regardless of cruel effects on individual people and communities. The company’s aim appears to be to make farmers everywhere reliant upon Monsanto’s genetically manipulated seeds. The day may come - particularly in third world nations - where the only seed you can buy to plant comes from one or two giant companies. They command the price, the specific sprays, and quite possibly the buyers market for the crop. That’s the fear but from a corporate perspective, its nirvana. A captured market. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/4 "2012-10-22T10:17:44Z")
I don’t know much about Monsanto, but I tend to be leery of luddites attacking the biotech and agritech industries, which have seen some fascinating developments in recent years. So if it’s corporate shenanigans you want to criticize, fire away; but anyone using the word “Frankenfood” will lose all credibility with me. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/5 "2012-10-22T10:26:20Z")
If you can go the Netflix Instant route, a couple of movies that might be eye-opening are “Food, Inc.,” and “King Corn.” Also, “Vanishing of the Bees” about colony collapse and how the industrialized crop industry/insecticide/vast single crop practice have a major hand in the collapse disorder. I found it fascinating as I had no idea about the trucking around of bees from state to state. It’s all connected, and I think things being uniformly “controlled” by only a tiny palmful of major corporations is a big problem. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/6 "2012-10-22T10:28:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know much about Monsanto, but I tend to be leery of luddites attacking the biotech and agritech industries, which have seen some fascinating developments in recent years. So if it’s corporate shenanigans you want to criticize, fire away; but anyone using the word “Frankenfood” will lose all credibility with me. I think there’s a legitimate ethical issue with some genetic engineering of food. I don’t mean in terms of altering the food itself, but in pushing it on people. I understand there’s quite a bit of issues in India with them being unable to feed their populace with unaltered crops, but unwilling to accept modified food for religious (or cultural, at least) reasons (or at least it has been simplified for me to this dynamic by a few documentaries). On one hand, is it ethical to let them starve? Is it ethical to refuse to sell the unmodified seeds, or lie to them about whether they’re engineered or not “for their own good”? Even if they would choose to starve otherwise? I certainly agree the “frankenfood” scare is ridiculous, and I don’t respect the mere argument that altered food = bad, but I think there’s a legitimate ethical issue with the whole ordeal when it comes to the dynamic between objectively superior altered food and people who don’t want to eat it despite the alternative being objectively damaging to them physically. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/7 "2012-10-22T10:35:52Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I think there’s a legitimate ethical issue with some genetic engineering of food. I don’t mean in terms of altering the food itself, but in pushing it on people. I understand there’s quite a bit of issues in India with them being unable to feed their populace with unaltered crops, but unwilling to accept modified food for religious (or cultural, at least) reasons (or at least it has been simplified for me to this dynamic by a few documentaries). > > On one hand, is it ethical to let them starve? Is it ethical to refuse to sell the unmodified seeds, or lie to them about whether they’re engineered or not “for their own good”? Even if they would choose to starve otherwise? > > I certainly agree the “frankenfood” scare is ridiculous, and I don’t respect the mere argument that altered food = bad, but I think there’s a legitimate ethical issue with the whole ordeal when it comes to the dynamic between objectively superior altered food and people who don’t want to eat it despite the alternative being objectively damaging to them physically. That’s the difference I referred to between attacking the science and attacking the corporation. Creating a better seed is a good thing. Forcing people to buy it, isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/8 "2012-10-22T11:52:19Z")
From the [Wiki article on “terminator seeds”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_seeds) I found this gem: > [@](#): > > Customers who buy patented transgenic seeds from Monsanto must sign a contract not to save or sell the seeds from their harvest. Monsanto pledges not to use the so-called “terminator seeds”, but only if farmers pledge to destroy any seed left over each season. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/9 "2012-10-22T12:01:54Z")
There’s condemnation of Monsanto for suing farmers who did plant saved seed without buying it. But in the most celebrated case it seems that a farmer had plants inadvertently cross-pollinated from his neighbors’ GM crop, and then saved and planted seeds for a number of years, taking advantage of the technology for free. It’s a bit hard to see him as a victim. I am wary of some aspects of GM technology since bad things could happen without adequate foresight and testing (for instance, quicker than expected weed resistance to Roundup, thanks to widespread spraying of GM “Roundup-ready” corn). But there’s too much potential for feeding more people with less use of hazardous chemicals to dismiss the technology altogether. Meantime, when Monsanto does something sleazy, go get 'em. It’s a false dichotomy to suggest you’ve either got to be anti-GM, or else you’re a corporate stooge. For lunatoid opinions on the subject, it’s hard to beat [this debate](http://www.amazon.com/forum/health/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1EO24KZG65FCB&cdPage=1&cdThread=Tx3OJQ0Q6Y5DWKZ). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/10 "2012-10-22T12:17:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > There’s condemnation of Monsanto for suing farmers who did plant saved seed without buying it. But in the most celebrated case it seems that a farmer had plants inadvertently cross-pollinated from his neighbors’ GM crop, and then saved and planted seeds for a number of years, taking advantage of the technology for free. It’s a bit hard to see him as a victim. If some apples from my neighbor’s tree fall into my yard and seeds end up being planted(without my assistance), am I obligated to pull up any trees that sprout up and destroy any crops that come forth? If I decide to keep the tree, how much money do I owe my neighbor for the use of the result of his cultivation program? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/11 "2012-10-22T13:01:28Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I understand there’s quite a bit of issues in India with them being unable to feed their populace with unaltered crops, but unwilling to accept modified food for religious (or cultural, at least) reasons (or at least it has been simplified for me to this dynamic by a few documentaries). > > On one hand, is it ethical to let them starve? Is it ethical to refuse to sell the unmodified seeds, or lie to them about whether they’re engineered or not “for their own good”? Even if they would choose to starve otherwise? I’ll do you the courtesy of asking you for a cite, but I’m reasonably sure this is a load of bollocks. To be clear, I’d need cites for 1. There being “quite a bit of issues in India with them being unable to feed their populace with unaltered crops”. India is (and was, a long while before genetically altered seeds came along) [self sufficient](http://planningcommission.nic.in/reports/genrep/bkpap2020/16_bg2020.pdf) in the production of food > [@](#): > > India achieved near self-sufficiency in the availability of foodgrains by the mid-seventies. The trend rate of foodgrain production improved from 2.3 per cent during the 1960s and 1970s to 2.9 per cent in the eighties (Bhalla and Singh 2001). It is particularly noteworthy that India could build enough buffer stocks to cope with year-to-year variations in foodgrain production. Field studies reveal > that during the 1987 drought, stable foodgrain prices, PDS supplies and the availability of consumption credit enabled drought affected villages to maintain their consumption at the same level as in normal years (Acharya, 1989; Bidinger, et al., 1990). > … > > The growth of food production slowed down to 2.72 percent per annum in the nineties. Ironically, even at the low growth rate of foodgrain production, the supplies outstripped the effective demand and the nineties has seen a rapid increase in the stock of foodgrains held by the government. Disposal of stocks has become a cause of concern. The domestic supplies are more than adequate to prevent food gaps 1. That there are religious or cultural reasons behind India being unwilling to accept seeds. There definitely are massive protests against GM food seeds(which have not been allowed yet), but they are all economic (farmers unwilling to purchase seed each year instead of keeping part of their crop as seed for next season) or environmental (alleging that GM foods are insufficiently field tested in the wild for environmental impact) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/12 "2012-10-22T13:56:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s the difference I referred to between attacking the science and attacking the corporation. Creating a better seed is a good thing. Forcing people to buy it, isn’t. How does a company force people to buy its products? If Monsanto’s seed is better than it is in the farmer’s best interest to use Monsanto’s seeds. If the seeds are not better, how can Monsanto force people to use the seeds. Are they sending goons to beat people up who use other types of seeds? I have not heard of that. It seems like Monsanto’s seeds are better than what is available elsewhere. Farmers obviously would like to pay less for those seeds, but providing a better product is not force. Apple is not forcing hipsters to purchase their products by making them shinier than the competition’s. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/13 "2012-10-22T13:59:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > There’s condemnation of Monsanto for suing farmers who did plant saved seed without buying it. But in the most celebrated case it seems that a farmer had plants inadvertently cross-pollinated from his neighbors’ GM crop, and then saved and planted seeds for a number of years, taking advantage of the technology for free. It’s a bit hard to see him as a victim. According to Monsanto, the Canadian Supreme Court [found](http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/percy-schmeiser.aspx) that the farmer’s version of events was not credible, because the amount and quality of Monsanto seed on his farm was was too high to be consistent with inadvertent cross-pollination. I have not read the actual decision, however, and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the company’s spin. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/14 "2012-10-22T14:31:45Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > According to Monsanto, the Canadian Supreme Court [found](http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/percy-schmeiser.aspx) that the farmer’s version of events was not credible, because the amount and quality of Monsanto seed on his farm was was too high to be consistent with inadvertent cross-pollination. I have not read the actual decision, however, and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the company’s spin. I did read the decision once, but it’s been quite a while. As I recall, \*\*Jackmannii \*_and you are correct - it wasn’t one year’s worth of cross-pollination. It happened one year, he noticed it, he intentionally cleared his conventional corn in the area around the Monsanto contaminated corn_ so the Monsanto contaminated corn would spread, and he saved seed from that Monsanto contaminated corn to plant more of the following year. Y’know…exactly how people have been encouraging traits they like in plants since, literally, the invention of agriculture. So it started with the pollen from Monsanto plants that blew into his corn. But very soon after, the guys in suits bearing Monsanto business cards showed up at his door and explained why the law said he couldn’t do what he was doing with those particular patented plants, and he told them to fuck off. Then he got a bunch of cameras thrust in his face and a narrative to support, and some of those facts got a liiiiiiitle glossed over in the press. Much as I’d love to hate the bigwigs in this particular case, they did have the law on their side…it’s really the law I hate. If you can’t keep your pollen to yourself, then you shouldn’t be able to get a patent. Take up your patent with the North Wind, assholes. \*ETA: by spraying it with Round Up (indicating that he knew exactly what that Round-Up Ready corn was from the start) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/15 "2012-10-22T14:41:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > According to Monsanto, the Canadian Supreme Court [found](http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/percy-schmeiser.aspx) that the farmer’s version of events was not credible, because the amount and quality of Monsanto seed on his farm was was too high to be consistent with inadvertent cross-pollination. I have not read the actual decision, however, and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the company’s spin. I have, and I can. And now, [so can you!](http://decisions.fca-caf.gc.ca/en/2002/2002fca309/2002fca309.html) > [@](#): > > Although the Trial Judge did not find that Mr. Schmeiser played any part initially in causing those glyphosate resistant canola plants to grow in 1997, the Trial Judge found as a fact, on the basis of ample evidence, that Mr. Schmeiser knew or should have known that those plants were glyphosate resistant when he saved their seeds in 1997 and planted those seeds the following year. It was the cultivation, harvest and sale of the 1998 crop in those circumstances that made Mr. Schmeiser vulnerable to Monsanto’s infringement claim. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/16 "2012-10-22T14:52:50Z")
But the fact is that he was given the pollen as a gift and had signed no contract restricting his use of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/17 "2012-10-22T14:54:00Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > If you can go the Netflix Instant route, a couple of movies that might be eye-opening are “Food, Inc.,” and “King Corn.” Also, “Vanishing of the Bees” about colony collapse and how the industrialized crop industry/insecticide/vast single crop practice have a major hand in the collapse disorder. I found it fascinating as I had no idea about the trucking around of bees from state to state. It’s all connected, and I think things being uniformly “controlled” by only a tiny palmful of major corporations is a big problem. This seems to contradict what I remember being posted elsewhere on the SDMB about Colony Collapse Disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/18 "2012-10-22T14:55:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But the fact is that he was given the pollen as a gift and had signed no contract restricting his use of it. If I give you an iPhone as a gift, do you imagine you can disassemble it, learn how it works, and begin making and selling duplicate iPhones? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/19 "2012-10-22T15:05:06Z")
Do you think the farmer should be able to sue the neighboring farm for rendering the seeds of his crop useless? The pollen is basically a pollutant at that point. Instead of bringing contaminants it brings lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/20 "2012-10-22T15:13:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If I give you an iPhone as a gift, do you imagine you can disassemble it, learn how it works, and begin making and selling duplicate iPhones? No, I imagine I can use it for the purpose for which it was designed, namely making phone calls and accessing the internet. Likewise, if I were given pollen, I imagine I can use it for the purpose for which it was designed, namely pollinating plants. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500.md?page=2)