# Monsanto- Is it really Teh Evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500 "2012-10-22T08:37:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/41 "2012-10-22T18:57:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > As for those linked pictures of rats with tumors, I don’t see where the site got them from (the widely discredited Seralini study, maybe?). Seralini. It’s cited at the bottom of this [page](http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-09-20/study-of-gmo-pesticide-induced-tumors-reveals-the-fraud-of-industry-research/). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/42 "2012-10-22T19:32:38Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The studies the website linked to are valid and peer-reviewed. It causes cancer in rats, the abstract of your cite (see the second sentence) corroborates that. On the contrary, the relevant abstract says _exactly the opposite_: _"Glyphosate is widely considered by regulatory authorities and scientific bodies to have **no carcinogenic potential** , based primarily on results of carcinogenicity studies of rats and mice.’_ (bolding added) The “studies” the Gaia website linked to actually are one study - the discredited Seralini research. This study, which has been [widely panned in the scientific community](http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/six-french-science-academies-dismiss-study-finding-gm-corn-harmed-rats/), was plagued by numerous methodological flaws, including insufficient size of study groups, lack of proper controls, lack of blinding (observers apparently knew which groups the animals belonged to) and an oddly low rate of tumors in the control group (the type of rats used are highly prone to tumors, but the controls had a reported abnormally low rate of tumors, which by contrast made the GM group’s tumor incidence appear high - though that “elevated” rate is about what one would expect for this strain of rats fed the usual laboratory diet). On top of that, the Seralini group refused to let reporters given the information pre-publication seek outside opinion before writing their stories. Rather than implicating GM foods and Monsanto, Seralini et al have demonstrated how bad science can be improperly politicized. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/43 "2012-10-22T19:45:15Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s the thing, he’s not disassembling it, or learning how it works, he’s just allowing the iPhone to boink his Samsung. Frankly, he could hardly prevent it if he wanted to, you know how randy those iPhones are. Then, when his phone gives birth to bunch of baby phones, he picks out the iPhones, breeds them, and gets sued. > > If some dude’s prize (patented) bull gets out of his corral and screws one of my cows, am I required to destroy the calf? No. But this is the issue that’s unique to learning how to modify the genes of a plant. The company wants the analogy to be manufacturing, and the copying of a design; you (apparently) want the analogy to be natural reproduction. But why do we allow intellectual property rights to exist at all? Is it not to protect the inventor of a novel idea to profit by it, and thereby encourage others to similarly invent stuff? If Monsanto could not be assured that its modified gene canola could be protected by law, then what’s its motive to spend the time and money to create it in the first place? If you insist that the proper model for a living gene is natural reproduction, and that such a gene can’t be protected by patent, then it seems you are arguing for a system that won’t get the benefit of much innovation in gene modification. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/44 "2012-10-22T19:52:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you insist that the proper model for a living gene is natural reproduction, and that such a gene can’t be protected by patent, then it seems you are arguing for a system that won’t get the benefit of much innovation in gene modification. Is that justification to prosecute people whose crops are accidentally cross-pollinated? Or to allow that accidental cross-pollination that can be stopped? I will raise the Xerox decision that prevented copyright laws from being used to restrain the use of copy machines in libraries. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/45 "2012-10-22T19:55:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From the [Wiki article on “terminator seeds”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_seeds) I found this gem:Monsanto pledges not to use the so-called “terminator seeds”, but only if farmers pledge to destroy any seed left over each season. The primary reason they made and marketed terminator seeds in the first place is in response to criticism that their dangerous Frankenseeds would spread. I don’t think there’s anything Monsanto can do to not be criticized on this point; if the seeds are one-use-only, they’re criticized for being greedy and evil. If the seeds aren’t self-terminating, they’re criticized for being irresponsible and evil. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/46 "2012-10-22T20:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Monsanto- Is it really Teh Evil? No…the tech isn’t Evil™. Possibly the corporations actions are (if you consider being about profit, and trying to optimize your intellectual property ‘evil’ then certainly, and even at their best corporations do things that are sometimes questionable even to pro-corporate folks), but the tech? No. Basically most of the, to me, tenuous ‘evidence’ that the tech is evil boils down to neo-Luddite thinking, dubious studies on par with the anti-Vaxers or folks who believe that cell phones and contrails are eating our brains, and at best some rather nebulous possible connections to problems that are far outweighed by the benefits…and basically the anti-corporate crowd who see CTs and rave about gloom and doom and relying on corporations for our food (and who probably have no idea where the food in their fridge actually comes from, or what it takes to get it to them…or how we have been reliant on corporations to feed us for decades now). > [@](#): > > Listening to Coast to Coast AM, opening my Facebook, checking the occasional Conspiracy Buff site- either Left or Right, I am hearing & seeing stuff about Monsanto corrupting the food supply, poisoning humanity, killing off competitor crops via terminator seeds (if I understand correctly), provoking farmer suicides in India, and generally controlling both main U.S. parties & various governments worldwide. Yeah. You especially hear this refrain in Europe, though there is a dedicated group of anti-GM folks in the US as well. I haven’t heard of the farmer suicides in India though…you have any more information on that? > [@](#): > > So what’s the Straight Dope? Feeder of the World, The Great Beast, or something in-between? I’d say something in between, but closer to ‘Feeder of the World’ than ‘The Great Beast’. Obviously, as you can see based on the responses in this thread, MMV, but I’ve never seen any convincing evidence that the problems or even the risks (or the corporate shenanigans) outweigh the huge benefit that the GM tech (which in one form or another man has been using for thousands of years, even if they didn’t realize what genes were until recently) has given us…and the potential in the future just seems so vast . ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/47 "2012-10-22T20:06:07Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > According to Monsanto, the Canadian Supreme Court [found](http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pages/percy-schmeiser.aspx) that the farmer’s version of events was not credible, because the amount and quality of Monsanto seed on his farm was was too high to be consistent with inadvertent cross-pollination. Just to be picky, the Supreme Court of Canada didn’t make any evidentiary finding; it’s an appellate court. Schmeiser’s account wasn’t exactly dismissed as dubious, anyway; he was pretty honest about what he had done, but at any rate the evidence was presented before the Federal Court, and then the decision was appealed upwards, eventually to the Supreme Court. Interestingly enough, Schmeiser - a former politician and a guy very good at doing PR - rested much of his argument on the fact that he hadn’t used Roundup on his crop, and therefore had not used the crop in the manner it was specifically invented for (the ability to withstand Roundup herbicide.) The court ruled that this was beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/48 "2012-10-22T21:20:06Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The case of Percy Schmeiser wasn’t anything like that. He went to a lot of trouble to specifically cultivate what he knew was the patented seed, the patent belonging to someone else, and chose to make new plants with that seed and sell them. Seems to me the big question was whether he was selling his spiffy canola seed to make oil, or whatever else it’s used for, or specifically as seed for other farmers to use. If it was the former, then it’s wrong; he can’t control that pollen, and he may as well take advantage of it to increase yields, etc… If it was the latter, then yeah, it’s absolutely a patent-infringement type issue. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/49 "2012-10-22T21:22:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If Monsanto could not be assured that its modified gene canola could be protected by law, then what’s its motive to spend the time and money to create it in the first place? I am in favor of them having protection that gives them incentive to innovate. The trouble here is that they are not simply selling an end product with Feature X. They are selling self contained manufacturing plants (heh) that will create hundreds or thousands of copies of itself. Not only do they self replicate, they also indiscriminately broadcast the protected IP to any other similar manufacturing plant, which will automatically begin production using Feature X. I feel like the “natural” state of this is that there is going to be a certain amount of unauthorized IP use, and the patent holder has to live with it, or find a way to deal with it, without bringing the hammer of the law down on people who are using something that the patent holder practically pushed into their product. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/50 "2012-10-22T21:25:34Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Seems to me the big question was whether he was selling his spiffy canola seed to make oil, or whatever else it’s used for, or specifically as seed for other farmers to use. > > If it was the former, then it’s wrong; he can’t control that pollen, and he may as well take advantage of it to increase yields, etc… > > If it was the latter, then yeah, it’s absolutely a patent-infringement type issue. It’s the difference between ‘well, I pirated that game just for my own use…and used the engine I hacked to develop my own games which I sold…what’s the big deal?’ verse ‘well, I sold the pirated game I hacked to others and licensed the pirated code so others could develop games. What’s the harm??’. Either way, you can always rationalize stuff like this if you contort enough, and certainly there are levels of badness here (pirating a game for your own use verse pirating and distributing the pirated game so others can use it too). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/51 "2012-10-23T15:13:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Is that justification to prosecute people whose crops are accidentally cross-pollinated? Or to allow that accidental cross-pollination that can be stopped? I will raise the Xerox decision that prevented copyright laws from being used to restrain the use of copy machines in libraries. No one who was simply a victim of accidental cross-pollination has been prosecuted, that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/52 "2012-10-23T15:31:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No one who was simply a victim of accidental cross-pollination has been prosecuted, that I know of. Have they ever sued? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/53 "2012-10-23T15:37:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The primary reason they made and marketed terminator seeds in the first place is in response to criticism that their dangerous Frankenseeds would spread. I don’t think there’s anything Monsanto can do to not be criticized on this point; if the seeds are one-use-only, they’re criticized for being greedy and evil. If the seeds aren’t self-terminating, they’re criticized for being irresponsible and evil. Its irresponsible for them \*not \* to use the terminator seeds. Criticism is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/54 "2012-10-23T15:41:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No one who was simply a victim of accidental cross-pollination has been prosecuted, that I know of. How is the proliferation of these patented genes going to be stopped? And how is there to be enforcement of a patent for a self-reproducing factory. Once you sell one how do you retain the rights to it’s indirect product. Why can’t I as a parent patent my children? This application of patent law is lacking in all common sense. But it’s not Monsanto that is evil, it’s the lawmakers that were bribed to allow this travesty that deserve the blame. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/55 "2012-10-23T16:20:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I haven’t heard of the farmer suicides in India though…you have any more information on that? [Here’s an example](http://digitaljournal.com/article/323656), I’ve heard a few variations on it, (including speculation that a lot of the seed sold as GMO in India is actually just the same stuff grown for years, at massively inflated prices, by people pretending to be Monsanto agents). Basically, the commonly sold GMO cotton variety produces nothing like as good a crop as farmers were led to believe, as it’s not resistant to all pests in the area, just some of them, and even they are overcoming the resistance: the GM seeds are a) massively more expensive; b) not saveable for next years seed; c) still require expensive insecticides despite assurances to the contrary and d) are all that is available in certain areas, partly because credit is only available to buy specific seeds. Crop failure and bankrupcy are leading a lot of farmers to suicide, that at least is not in doubt; how much of that is due to Monsanto’s marketing is the question. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/56 "2012-10-23T16:31:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Have they ever sued? Not to my knowledge, no. I welcome information to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/57 "2012-10-23T17:12:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How is the proliferation of these patented genes going to be stopped? Proliferation via what method? You asked about accidental cross-pollination; there’s no reason to assume that this is a significant source of proliferation. Seed taken from a field that was subject to some drifting pollen won’t be dominated by modified crops; it will have a few here and there. Farmer Percy deliberately sprayed his crops with Roundup to kill all the unmodified crops and then saved the seeds. That kind of proliferation is a result of human agency, not random chance. > [@](#): > > And how is there to be enforcement of a patent for a self-reproducing factory. Once you sell one how do you retain the rights to it’s indirect product. Why can’t I as a parent patent my children? This application of patent law is lacking in all common sense. But it’s not Monsanto that is evil, it’s the lawmakers that were bribed to allow this travesty that deserve the blame. OK. Let’s say we reverse the decision: you can’t patent something that reproduces itself. It seems to me the result will be no other company spending time and money to invent a highly useful, albeit self-reproducing, genetic innovation. Is that a valid and desirable result? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/58 "2012-10-23T18:26:16Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > [Here’s an example](http://digitaljournal.com/article/323656), I’ve heard a few variations on it, (including speculation that a lot of the seed sold as GMO in India is actually just the same stuff grown for years, at massively inflated prices, by people pretending to be Monsanto agents). > > Basically, the commonly sold GMO cotton variety produces nothing like as good a crop as farmers were led to believe, as it’s not resistant to all pests in the area, just some of them, and even they are overcoming the resistance: the GM seeds are a) massively more expensive; b) not saveable for next years seed; c) still require expensive insecticides despite assurances to the contrary and d) are all that is available in certain areas, partly because credit is only available to buy specific seeds. > > Crop failure and bankrupcy are leading a lot of farmers to suicide, that at least is not in doubt; how much of that is due to Monsanto’s marketing is the question. Thanks for the info! Sounds more like a scam though, and less like a problem with GM tech, per se. I certainly am opposed to companies or individuals scamming folks, and think that someone doing that about something as vital as food in India should be prosecuted for murder (even leaving aside the suicides)…possibly buried in a fire ant mount in the desert after being liberally doused with honey… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/59 "2012-10-23T19:26:39Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Crop failure and bankrupcy are leading a lot of farmers (in India) to suicide, that at least is not in doubt; how much of that is due to Monsanto’s marketing is the question. [The hype doesn’t seem to match the facts](http://www.collide-a-scape.com/2012/05/09/how-seeds-of-a-false-story-took-root-and-spread/). ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500/60 "2012-10-23T19:41:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Have they ever sued? As far as I know, no one has been harmed by cross-pollination. You’d need harm before there’s a law suit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monsanto-is-it-really-teh-evil/638500.md?page=4)